In the final part of our Questlandia 2 series, we discuss the process of worldbuilding, talk about designing a game made for campaigns, and chat about how our lives influence our art in our discussion episode with Hannah Shaffer and Evan Rowland, designers of the game and hosts of the Design Doc podcast, also part of the One Shot Podcast Network!
In the final part of our Questlandia 2 series, we discuss the process of worldbuilding, talk about designing a game made for campaigns, and chat about how our lives influence our art in our discussion episode with Hannah Shaffer and Evan Rowland, designers of the game and hosts of the Design Doc podcast, also part of the One Shot Podcast Network!
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Hannah Shaffer @hanbandit
Evan Rowland @adrawnnovel
Make Big Things @makebigthings
Design Doc @designdocpod
Character Creation Cast:
Amelia Antrim 0:21
Welcome back to our discussion episode. Last time we created some ghosts and a world for quest Landa to this episode we're going to discuss the character creation process. We are excited to welcome back Evan Rowland. And Hannah Schaffer, the designers of this game. Do you want to go ahead and introduce yourselves for everybody and tell us a little bit about the character you made in our last episode? And maybe if you want to give like one fact about the world?
Hannah Shaffer 0:47
Yeah, I am Hannah, one of the designers of India to and I made a ghost who was the mischief maker archetype. They were large and scruffy and like a round ball of fur, and they liked happily getting into trouble. And one fact about the world is that we made people. We were a society of people who made people.
Amelia Antrim 1:24
Unknown Speaker 1:27
Evan Rowland 1:32
I'm Evan. I am another one of the designers of Queensland here to in the game that we played, I was a talking snake, who was interested in nature and the plant life of the world. In that world. I discussed the trees whose wood is the material that makes a new life. The automatons that the people At this world made, who were very professional and increasingly
Unknown Speaker 2:06
Ryan Boelter 2:12
Awesome. And Amelia, why don't you tell us about your character? Sure. And the fact about the world,
Amelia Antrim 2:18
okay, um, I picked the investigator archetype. And so my ghost was upright and dapper and dangerously curious. There is we decided a scarcity of this would that is used to make our new people and some very complicated environmental factors around why we can't just grow more of it. And Ryan, what about you?
Ryan Boelter 2:52
I was making the builder ghost who was constructed from many pieces, but full of enthusiasm. Islam and
Unknown Speaker 3:03
Unknown Speaker 3:04
literally for you. I know.
Ryan Boelter 3:14
And I, apparently there was a movement to help the creation of these creations so that the world could balance itself out again. Which, which is very sad or hopeful. Maybe. I guess we didn't stay long enough to find out. No. All right, well, let's go ahead and dive right into our segment that we're going to be calling d 24. Your thoughts, your thoughts? So in this segment, we want to talk to our guests about their thoughts on the character creation process and how it relates to this system and two other games. But first, the classic interview question. How did you get into robot Games.
Evan Rowland 4:02
Do you want to begin Hannah or should I?
Amelia Antrim 4:04
I you should do it. Um,
Evan Rowland 4:06
I had a cool uncle who sent me first edition d&d junk in the mail when I was a kid, including his old characters. His his elf, Gordon Lightfoot. I learned much later, actual person. So I was very young. I have memories of being an elementary school walking to school with my friend talking about our d&d campaign, and accepting an actual bribe of his lunch money to give his character some advantages. So it's from that immoral foundation that my career has grown.
Amelia Antrim 4:56
Ryan Boelter 5:00
called meta game. Yeah.
Evan Rowland 5:02
That's that's a meta game a game.
Amelia Antrim 5:07
What about you, Hannah? How did you how did you end up here?
Hannah Shaffer 5:09
Yeah, good question. I, I didn't get into role playing games until much later. Although I'm a lifelong like player of games. I played a lot of video games as a kid. Loved some sim Park. Love some loom. Really appreciate a point and click adventure game. But yeah, it wasn't until Evan and I had started this community center going on. This is not quite 10 years ago, but an amount of time has passed. That, you know, a bunch of game designers walked through the door. And it was like, Oh, cool. Maybe I can make pen and paper games. Mm hmm. Which I guess is how does that mean? That is so my my my Like birth as a game designer and as a player like kind of happened simultaneously.
Ryan Boelter 6:05
Amelia Antrim 6:06
Did that did you then just kind of as you were introduced to game design, then did you decide like, Oh, I need to play a bunch of games to kind of get a feel for it? Or is it just like a thing that you're like, Oh, I want to design games and then being in that space led to playing more games.
Hannah Shaffer 6:24
Honestly, the first few role playing games I played I think I struggled with a little bit um, there were like some parts of the process that I found a little difficult and so the jump to like wanting to make my own and to see if I could do it myself was low within like the course of a few months. Wow.
Amelia Antrim 6:46
Yeah, I think that's I think that happens for a lot of people is like, you sit down and right away, you're like, Oh, this thing doesn't work. Yeah. You know, you start with like, this and things like that. And, you know, we I brought it up. I don't know if it was in on this podcast or not. But in our first Character evolution cast episode when we talked to James d'amato, he said every time you sit down to play a game you are designing he's like you make a decision on what rules you're going to keep in which ones you're not going to use. And so every time you sit down to do something that is game design, and so I think that for a lot of people, that's how it starts is like, well, this thing isn't clicking for me. It's not working. So either we're just not going to do that or, but what else instead or how he likes it, and then it kind of just like I said before, it just snowballs from there.
Ryan Boelter 7:38
I mean, even on our first series was d&d toss call pointed out that there's three different ways to create characters in d&d, three different ways to roll your attributes or pick your attributes, choosing which way that's a design process. Yeah, which is really interesting.
Amelia Antrim 7:56
Yeah, you're making design decisions all the time. It's just whether you, you know, write them down or not.
Unknown Speaker 8:03
Amelia Antrim 8:04
I have expressed our love of collaborative world building a bunch of times on this show, and to the point where we recently just did an episode that was just about collaborative world building. But I'm interested in, I'm interested to know, what about it appeals to both of you, because this is a game that very heavily involves that world building portion.
Hannah Shaffer 8:28
I mean, make big things like as a company, we're a co op. So a lot of what we do is like making decisions together, and making collaborative decisions together. And I think that also some of at least what we were really trying to do in India one was to recognize some of like the limitations of a lot of collaborative games we played. You know, my experience with some collaborative games had been like that. It was really easy to get talked to over as a quieter player, but like The collaboration turned into sort of a snowball of excitement and like if you got it would be easy to get left behind. So making crystal India one was us trying to take the parts of collaboration we love the most and try to like codify some of the good behavior so that sounds so boring and like trying to make just like suggestions for really how to make that collaboration work because some games are kind of like now collaborate. And it's it's what we're trying to do in India to also see, you know, it's got a long ways to go. I don't want to be too hard on it because you know, it's still it's still a baby game. But Evan, do you have any anything you want to add?
Evan Rowland 9:49
When we were first testing out quest land do one. I remember being shocked at how much I fell in love with the world. That we were making at the table. And that shock was partly because I had this idea of world building as being the burden that is on a fiction and creator. It's like oh, Tolkien is a big achievement was creating this big world that then he can introduce us to as opposed to thinking, first of all, that that is achievable. It is not a absolutely, Titanic, mysterious process to make an enormous world that's interesting and new and worth exploring. And second, that it's not work, that it's thrilling. It's really fun to make your own world that when and setting comes with its own pre built world. That was the author having their own bit of fun before letting you In. And by starting the game with creating the world altogether, not only can you enjoy the process of doing that sort of archaeology and growing your understanding of the setting, you also have the chance for everybody to put a hook into it, so that it reflects something they care about, like maybe some people this table care about climate change, or discrimination, or, you know, the politics of how people get into society and what roles they take. Because those are some of the themes that just sort of naturally arose through our conversations about the world that we made. And I think that makes a world that everybody feels invested in a little bit.
Hannah Shaffer 11:48
Ryan Boelter 11:50
So is that is that part of the reason then why you made it a GM lyst game, so everybody was on the same level. Net collaborative world will be process.
Evan Rowland 12:04
Definitely. I mean, the GM part of the team's job is to make a setting that everybody can be engaged in. Right? And like your your job is to make sure that all the players at your table have a way that they feel invested in the world and excited to be a part of it and have things to do that reflects what their character is sort of pointed at, you know, a good GM will be supporting their player group like that. In Kressley, India, we want everybody to be doing that for each other all the time. And everybody to feel that same kind of connection to the setting. Like if we did have a GM and we I was, I was still asking you to make a part of the world you might not feel the same responsibility To make that part of the world, relevant to everybody in the group connected to everything that everybody else is making, because it could just be off put on to the GM, it's their job to bring it all together. To make the story out of it.
Amelia Antrim 13:15
This game focuses a lot on player input in creating the story, but still does use dice, or in this case, a DI. And previous you're the original quest lambda use playing cards to
Hannah Shaffer 13:32
Why did you feel like adding that element of randomness was really important to the process? I mean, I feel like even from what we just played, you know, the, for me, even though I love the world building, it takes a lot of like creative energy. Like it can be both fun and exhausting at the same time. And I feel like also when it's collaborative, there's like this emotional component of like, Is this idea, okay? Is somebody not jumping with no idea what they're like not comfortable saying it. And so adding randomize, both takes away, it feels like it takes away a little bit of that, like social stress and also creative stress. And it just like, you can often come up with things that are so much more creative with like a little bit of that limitation. I mean, the difference between like, rolling for an eye, and picking Iris and having nothing to roll on and being like, what should the name be of the kingdom we start in. Especially when you're playing, you know, you're just in the very beginning of a game, maybe with strangers like that, that I ends up being really crucial. Mm hmm.
Amelia Antrim 14:46
Yeah, I find that gaming, like, for me, always works better. And I say this about like, pretty much any system is when I have at least a little bit of a structure to work within. Like I need somebody to build some of that scaffolding for me because otherwise It's it's just too overwhelming to be like, I don't know, you can do anything. Okay, so having some of that like, okay, you can do anything within this sort of area. Cool, great. Yeah, I can work with that.
Ryan Boelter 15:18
It's really interesting in, in my experience with what we did the last episode, that element of randomness kind of is indicative of your ghosts. Your characters aren't omnipotent. In this world, they're not like, they're not the masters of, you know, creating every single thing them from themselves. They have this thing saying, oh, by the way, we're introducing this trouble. We don't know what type of trouble it's going to be. Once we figure that out, then we can shape it a little bit. Yeah. Which is really cool.
Hannah Shaffer 16:00
Yeah it's been an ongoing question about like how how much the ghosts are creating the world's impacting the world's observing the world and I don't think we've like settled exactly on an answer yet but I I definitely don't want them to be like God's you know, right. pulling the strings of these little people marionettes, even though we did create a world where literally people but
Ryan Boelter 16:32
so what does the process of character creation then tell us about playing the game? I mean, it's it's an interesting one because
Amelia Antrim 16:45
the process of character creation was just like like nothing. Right? Yeah. doesn't tell us a ton, but then like, what we went through after that, to do like the world building was
Ryan Boelter 16:58
I I don't know, I think It does tell us a time. Like the silence is deafening in this case where it's saying, you know, you don't know much about yourself as this ghost going into this thing, whereas we don't know anything about the world. Going into it, aside from the name of what we call it.
Amelia Antrim 17:21
Perfect. I like that. We just answered that question like we have like an interview.
Ryan Boelter 17:37
schemes just got my mind going though.
Amelia Antrim 17:39
Yeah, I love it.
Hannah Shaffer 17:41
Evan, I don't know. Is there anything that you want to add? Or I mean it or is it sort of an answered question? I mean,
Evan Rowland 17:46
for me, it's not an answered question. This is a part of the game that's being very actively developed. You saw the touchstones of the characters which are an idea of learning about the backstory of your characters as a result of them, learning about the story of the worlds that they're in. So the character creation process is definitely ongoing over the course of multiple worlds in that case, and is linked to your understanding of the places you visited. And that's just talking about the ghost is characters. But we met one character and could have met many more within the world. We met Camden, one of the creative people of this world. And the process of creating Camden starts with one person's idea. And then it's fleshed out by everybody at the table, asking more or less, what are they interested in about this character? And in that way, Camden is a shared character that has something about him or them sorry that reflects everybody's interest at the table.
Ryan Boelter 19:01
It's interesting it almost feels like like the backstory of the ghosts is not supposed to be fully revealed in one world
Evan Rowland 19:15
for sure yeah.
Ryan Boelter 19:19
What? What happens when you fulfill all your touchstones on a ghost then? Is that still in? That's a forbidden question side face
Evan Rowland 19:30
afraid I'm not at liberty to answer that
Hannah Shaffer 19:37
guess in six months maybe we'll answer
Unknown Speaker 19:42
it's really interesting.
Amelia Antrim 19:45
Well, I want to I want to ask then why I'm obviously the goal is to kind of figure out like the background and the story of your ghost. Um, but we really only have like those two questions when we kind of create them was that really Important to only have like that minimal amount of information about the characters? Or is that just like a matter of not knowing quite yet, like what other things might be important or
Hannah Shaffer 20:13
some of that is that there's been this thing that we've been wrestling with since we first came up with the idea for these ghosts. Which is like how, if you're going to be creating these ghost characters, and then creating these worlds where inside the world, there will be characters, like how much is going to be Character, and world information overload. And you know, this is sort of like still in the experimental phase, but the idea of like limiting the information that you learn about your ghost at first is partly to limit that overload and then making them ghost just really justifies that. Like, you just tag those mechanics into the narrative.
Evan Rowland 20:59
So times if you feel too invested in that metal level, it makes it more difficult and redundant to make characters in the world. You know, I was the gardener. And if you feel like every character that you're going to introduce in this setting needs to be a gardener. Or like, you know, somewhere it gets too restrictive. And it's too limiting. And it's not really the intention. The hope is that it gives you certain angles to approach the setting at but without feeling like you're going to be a one trick pony for an entire campaign, constantly just talking about grass.
Ryan Boelter 21:54
Yeah, I did. I didn't notice that it was we were all collaborating to different aspects. of the society. And I think if we were to get into those scenes, we would have been able to see more distinct aspects of our own characters on the ghosts of the specialties that we had. Yeah. Since we stayed away from the scenes for the sake of time and so we didn't have to role play out a bunch of actual role play and actual game we
Amelia Antrim 22:29
got here. Yeah, we don't we don't do that here. No play games.
Ryan Boelter 22:35
Since we, since we avoided that it was it was more abstract and more generalized in terms of what we were creating with the world. And something that I think Hannah had said before, or maybe it was having the I love that the process of diving in not knowing much about your character and learning about your character. through learning about the world is is really, really interesting. Because you're diving into this campaign of unknowns to try to self discover, which is really cool.
Amelia Antrim 23:17
Yeah, I feel like you started out with like just tons of hooks and like tons of direction that you can go in. And that was without even like going further into the actual like archetypes and the kind of questions and scenes and things that we had on there that then would like sort of further pull on those strings. Like I feel like we started with a really solid base before we even got into it. That's great to hear.
Hannah Shaffer 23:41
Amelia Antrim 23:46
I mean, I'm so like, obviously, this is a GM lyst game, but this is the thing that interests me a lot of times about character creation is the way that we make choices there and what that can tell us GM about, like the kind of game that you want to play. And so, like the world building, and this character choices are really important because they do influence what happens going forward. And I think it's all the more important in a game like this where there isn't a GM, and you're sort of like running it yourself. But even in those games that do have someone, it's, you're not just like showing up with the character sheet. And then like, I guess we'll see what happens. It's like, by building that character, you've sort of said, these are the things that are important to me, these are the questions that I want to explore. These are the themes that I care about. And then like translating that onto a game, and I feel like this game from what I can tell, does a really good job of that and is all the more important because you're having to do that yourself, you know, because there isn't somebody running things or picking like where the story is going to go. You're all doing that together. Yeah.
Evan Rowland 24:56
Yeah, we tried to make a lot of those Decisions just very explicit where the touchstone of a character, like the investigator has a touchstone, which is somebody is murdered in the setting. And we need to find out why. And that would be you just saying, really explicitly, I want there to be a murder mystery in this world that we're going to solve, right. And I want everybody else at the table to weigh in about what would make that interesting and difficult. So it tries to give everybody the tools to be very clear about what they're asking for from the game and to have the tools to deliver it to each other. Mm hmm.
Ryan Boelter 25:43
Yeah, I would say the only quote unquote flaw of this type of approach is kind of the point of the game. Really. It's not really a fly in the in the game design itself. It's a fly in the You don't know, much up front. If, if anything, aside from I'm going to be the builder. And this is what I look like and this is how I act. Right? And you have to kind of invest yourself into that like super meta level and want to dive into a different plane is different. NBC is within this world. It's not a real flies just a different way to play because you're not coming to a table with a fully fleshed out character.
Amelia Antrim 26:40
Well, so we didn't ask this question yet. Ryan. I apologize. jumping ahead. So one of the things we we like to talk with people about is like, what are the flaws? What are the things that you are proudest of? And it will say that's the thing, Ryan that comes up a lot when we when we talk about the Like flaws. And generally where we end up is, it's only a flaw, if that's not the kind of game you want to play. Yes. And it's like you have to be invested in that thing going into it. So you have to be playing with a group of people who are like, we want to tell a story. And we want to be like, here and present in the moment and be part of this story. Because like, it's not going to happen to you, there is nobody to make sure that this game happens to you, you know? Yeah. And so like, I guess, if that's, you know, if you want to show up and just kind of like, casually, like, hang out, this maybe isn't like, you know, like, if you want to be on your phone, and also like playing this game, it's not gonna work. But then maybe this just isn't the game for you. It's not a flaw in the game so much as it you know, like, not everything is for everyone, right? But I want to ask you to because you've been, like, looking at this game so much and like changing so many things. Are there things right now? That you feel like this is a thing I definitely know needs to get fixed or is there a thing that you generally feel? This is a thing that like, we're going to keep this works really well.
Hannah Shaffer 28:13
I mean, definitely, as we were playing there were little things where it was like, Oh, I want to tweak this or limit this or shift this. I was also like, Whoa, we pulled this together really fast. And it worked pretty well. Because we've pulled together so many versions over the past year and it coming up with this idea for the these these characters that are ghosts were formerly called the junk poets. And it's it's just been this ongoing question of like, who are the drunk poets? How do they work? Are they going to break the game and making them these ghosts has really helped things come together. It's like a story that sort of justifies itself. Yeah, flaws. I mean, definitely that like this process is not going to be for everyone. And it also it's been like a hard game to figure out how to pitch it. And like what to since question India one we have sort of struggled with just like the you know the pitch like what's the elevator pitch? How do you explain this game? Because that's going to go a long way into telling people like, there is no world when you sit down at the table. So we have to be able to communicate it through the themes and like really try to reach the right people for like, Well, you know, here's what we care about. Here's the stories this game aims to tell. But it is not telling them yet. That's what you're here for. You're gonna make it.
Ryan Boelter 29:45
It's a game of self discovery through external discovery.
Hannah Shaffer 29:48
Exactly. Well, that
Amelia Antrim 29:51
clip that out someone write that down,
Hannah Shaffer 29:54
writing it down
Evan Rowland 29:58
one very Just sort of surface level challenge, I hope doesn't turn into a flaw. And the final version is arranging the information on these sheets for the ghosts. Because that sheet is both the character sheet of how to play this character and advanced them and what tools you have. It's also a GM book. It tells you how to run scenes, how to organize the other players, what questions to ask of them and how to answer them. It's a, it's a lot. It's a very involved piece of paper. And a lot of those components of it are linked together. But kinds of scenes that you can call for has something to do with what kind of character you want to play this ghost as. And so designing this page, so that you can quickly find the thing. You're looking for have a good sense of what you want to do, maintain a sense of your character, and not just your role. It's like an organizer of the world. It's tricky.
Amelia Antrim 31:16
I feel like that's like a thing that comes up a lot is just how to, how to communicate, what you need to communicate, like how to tell people all of the things that they need to know, in a way that is accessible and understandable. So you don't have to look really hard to find the things that you need. But it's not like so simple that you don't have the info that you need. That seems like a very delicate balance that I think a lot of and like honestly, in my expert opinion, that a lot of like even like big game companies struggle with Like that there are, you know, like the way that the books are laid out or where the info is or you know even how to find things on your character sheet or how to read a character sheet. It gets very complicated and it's like it's a very delicate balance to strike and one that I'm not sure that there is like a perfect answer for
Hannah Shaffer 32:20
Yeah, design is so much is such a big part of the understanding of how to play a game like visual design and layout of not just the game design, but like the, you know, the layout design, so you can actually like you can squeeze a lot onto a character sheet, but if it's not laid out in the right way, that flow of information just becomes really overwhelming. So that's definitely going to be one of our challenges.
Amelia Antrim 32:47
I think that's a thing, too, that is. It's difficult to do on your own as a designer to because like the way that you look at the sheet is also called by the fact that you know all of these other things about the game, whereas I know nothing about this game. So when I sit down and look at the sheet, is that enough to tell me what I need to know? Is that something that you have to kind of collaborate with? And that's, you know, like play testing and feedback and things like that to have balancing like, you know what I feel like you need to know versus what do I feel like I need to know. Yeah,
Hannah Shaffer 33:23
you know? Sure. Definitely. Yeah. Yeah, it's like, that sure. is a sure of like, Oh, sure. Sometime we're gonna have to send this out to other people and you know, like, not be there at the table and get that next round of feedback. For you thought something made sense visually, that totally did.
Amelia Antrim 33:49
Ryan Boelter 33:51
So how have you changed the system for India one, too quickly, the two to tell these difference Aside from making it into a long form campaign sort of do
Hannah Shaffer 34:10
something that I feel like we're still working on in terms of not just changing the game, but changing the types of stories is that crystal India one. It was this game about collapsing kingdoms. And the game didn't really tell you like sometimes you can make these choices basically with the dice to get something good for yourself in exchange for throwing your kingdom or your world under the bus. And so for a certain type of player group or like a player who is like, I love the Joker, I just want to watch the world burn. Like you would get these worlds that sort of descended into like a jolly type of chaos and making the game Now in the political climate that we're in, where it feels like that type of chaos and like, being joyful about that type of cast just feels like a little too on the nose for us right now. We wanted to change the game, to make sure that it told stories of people, you know, maybe confronting a difficult time and like coming together in that time and people who aren't necessarily like they're not heroes, they're not necessarily good people, but they didn't like don't like in that type of like, it's chaos, and it's all on fire. And that's, you know, that's funny. It felt like, you know, the 2014 version to the 2019 version had to get a little bit of a kindness upgrade. I don't know Evan, is there anything that you want to add?
Evan Rowland 35:53
I think that's, that's right on.
Hannah Shaffer 35:58
You know, it's just We felt a little sad. And we're like, oh, we want to tell stories of people coming together and you know, trying to not necessarily fix their world but not heard it.
Unknown Speaker 36:14
Amelia Antrim 36:16
I'm wondering how much that kind of thinking has influenced some of your other game design too, because it seems like both of these versions of this game have been fairly influenced by, you know, like the world around you and the political climate and things like that. And I'm wondering, like, is that something that has always sort of fed into your design work or your creative projects or is that something that is like you've used this as a project to kind of channel some of that?
Unknown Speaker 36:45
You want to take that, Evan?
Unknown Speaker 36:47
Evan Rowland 36:50
you know, some of both. Every project has some real world inspiration when I was working on normal India, which is about principled people in a corrupt society. I wasn't thinking like this is a corrupt society, and these are going to be people who shake it up. But it involves watching a lot of new are thinking about isolated acts of crime, or, you know, problems in society versus systemic issues, and how to recognize that.
Unknown Speaker 37:32
Evan Rowland 37:36
the most sort of fruitful and interesting questions that go into designing any of these games feel like they have to hook into an actual concern about the world that I have. Or a question about the world that I have. if for no other reason, then game design takes lots and lots and lots of hours. And to stay interested in it. throughout that time, there's got to be a heart of care and interest and curiosity. So that you can be learning something as you go.
Amelia Antrim 38:14
Yeah, that's another thing that I've, I say, like, I keep saying this, like, I've done so much game design, like, it's like, a little bit of one game. We'll get there when I have buckets of free time. But that's the thing that like, I don't know that I've really spent a lot of time like personally analyzing like, why I've made this decision. So it's, it's interesting, because I feel like you've both been very, like transparent that this is, you know, like, this is the thing that is influenced by what's going on around you. And I don't know if I've like really analyzed that. Ryan, have you? I mean, it also depends on what kind of game you're making to like, how much that influence it like, I think in my case, at least, it's not so much about like, my political views or the world around me sort of affecting what's happening in the game or like how the game is played so much as, it's the reason why I need to be making something. It's like this is this is my outlet for like, this frustration or these feelings of like, you know, in my case of like this need to be productive or create something. It's like, yeah, doing something tangible with my time. And that's where mine comes from. But I don't know. It's just interesting.
Ryan Boelter 39:28
Yeah, I just wanted to create a game where you create any sort of world you want to play in, and then you play as heroes in that world. And, and that's kind of where we're kind of era kind of started from where you can blend any number of these genres, but You are the hero of the story of that world. Which, which was very compelling to me. Whether or not that had anything to do with society, or just me I was a early teenager saying I want to be a knight when I grow up. Yeah.
Evan Rowland 40:08
That's you figuring out your role?
Hannah Shaffer 40:11
Amelia Antrim 40:12
I feel like that does fit you, Ryan that was like, you're the kind of person who like, Ryan always plays the healer. You are the kind of person who's like, I'm going to fix the problems. And I'm going to like be this like, you know, like this force for good always like, you know, you're not you're not quite as jaded as I am.
Ryan Boelter 40:31
Yeah, the change you want to see in the room?
Unknown Speaker 40:33
Amelia Antrim 40:34
Yeah, I don't know. That was just I know not again, I'm on our outline. But to me. This is the fun part of the podcast. Not that the rest was terrible. But this is this is what I like to call the fan fiction section of the podcast where we talk about how we think this game might have gone if we had actually played it. A lot. We talk about like how the mechanics of the different character types go together. I don't think that that is relevant in this case. I mean, because there are like questions and things like that, but generally, I just want to know, like, why do we think what happened? I was I think is the investigator archetype. Like, I need to know who set this fire.
Evan Rowland 41:24
Important. I mean, one thing that I am looking forward to in this game, and we haven't had a chance to play test it yet, is the conversations and conflicts that that ghosts will have with each other. I would really look forward to talking to the builder ghost, who is maybe fascinated with the actual art of constructing these and being the snake who's just like you're not building anything without the trees. Right.
Unknown Speaker 41:57
Evan Rowland 42:00
I would be excited to see how those conversations went.
Ryan Boelter 42:06
Amelia Antrim 42:09
Yeah, that's an interesting thing too, because I, we don't really know much about ourselves as characters. You know, there's, I wonder how like role playing that would go. Because there isn't a whole lot of like, I don't think we have a whole lot to go on there, which isn't a bad thing. I'm just like, interested in I think when we other times when we built characters, it's like, Okay, I have a general idea of like, my personality and Ryan's personality, and like how that would interact. And we don't have as much of that here. So I'd be really interested just to see like, what, what that looks like, as opposed to Yeah, I think you're right, just like our interactions with the world but with each other to would be fascinating. Yeah, I have no clue where that would go.
Evan Rowland 42:53
A dream is for that to be something that can grow and evolve over the course of a whole campaign. We've been to multiple worlds together, and we're feeling more and more at home with our ghost characters and our relationships to each other. And in a certain sense, the focus starts to shift more to the ghosts, and why they're here and what they want out of these worlds over time, but let's just hope that's my fan fiction for my own game.
Amelia Antrim 43:28
I really like that though, because I think that's a problem. I, I don't particularly like to play one shots because I feel like I don't have enough time to figure out who my character is. It I just always, like walk away. I'm like, that was a fun game, but like, I don't feel like I got, like the level of immersion that I wanted, because it just didn't have time to figure it out. And so the thing that I prefer about campaigns and I, I kind of like the idea that I don't have to know any of that right away. Because I feel like that first sessions was really awkward for me trying to like figure out Exactly how to inhabit a character and it feels like this game would let you kind of slowly figure that out over time, which is the thing in my personal experience that I'm doing anyway.
Ryan Boelter 44:10
Yeah, it's interesting because when when you have talked in the past, Amelia about prepping for long form campaigns where you know, this is the character I'm going to be playing for X number of months. You prep the heck out of that care. Right, you've got you've got a lot of good like, backstory, so when When, when, you know, the first session starts, you know, a lot about what that Character is. This kind of takes away a lot of that pre game pressure.
Amelia Antrim 44:49
Yeah, yeah, I think that that's, that's true because I have weird feelings always about like back stories and like, you know, like coming in with like a ton of information and Because I don't feel like that's the thing that you should put on your GM, like, you don't have to read my 300 page novel before we can sit down to play. And I also have like, complicated feelings about getting too attached to something that hasn't actually happened at the table, you know, like having this idea like this is who my character is, and then getting into the game, and that doesn't quite fit in, like, how do you resolve that dissonance. But I do like to go into a game and kind of have an idea of like, what is the kind of arc that I want for my character? Like, what is their central like, personal conflict? And like, you know, like, what would a potential like, story arc that you want to play out? Which is a thing that this game sort of, has you do in the moment, rather than me spending three months being like, I don't know who they are as a person and like what they want out of life? I don't know. But like, we'll figure it out.
Unknown Speaker 45:55
Yeah. And it almost feels
Amelia Antrim 45:56
an interesting way to play a campaign. I don't know.
Unknown Speaker 46:00
I don't know if I would really really love it or be like, I liked I just like to know that
Ryan Boelter 46:07
it's all about every character has the goal of self discovery. It feels and and with that in mind, the more we uncover ourselves, the more questions we have what is left to uncover? And going down that that sort of rabbit hole in care in play is really interesting.
Amelia Antrim 46:34
Yeah, and watching everybody do that at the same time would be so cool.
Evan Rowland 46:40
Yeah, part of my fan fiction is seeing the investigator, the dapper, curious investigator. Finally uncover the plot to burn down the museum. find out who's culpable and then it turning around to this situation where we all learn and remember together, how we first met this ghost, and what it was like when you joined the Concord. And like, think about the whole arc of your first moment of meeting us all to this moment of discovery within this world. And just having that relationships deep in, in two directions at once, just at that moment.
Ryan Boelter 47:29
Oh, that's awesome.
Unknown Speaker 47:31
Oh, that's very good. Yeah.
Unknown Speaker 47:36
Amelia Antrim 47:38
yeah, I I'm intrigued by like that idea to have like, collectively deciding that backstory to, um, I think that's the thing that I like about doing like character creation as a group. And why Ryan and I are obsessed with the concept of session zero. is like sitting down together and all kind of collaborating on that. But I think even in most games, like as much as you might collaborate and like talk it out, it's still not a group process, you know, which this very much is.
Ryan Boelter 48:13
Yeah. I really like the thought of the the tension of getting to that gate opening phase. And being at the cusp of uncovering the answer for one of your one of your things that will unlock more about yourself and not having to decide we decide to stay and watch the world for more.
Amelia Antrim 48:39
And then like everybody else wanting to leave and you being like, I need to stay as I'm so close to figuring this out. Yeah. And then
Evan Rowland 48:47
one aspect of that is that as the result of scenes, the face can change on its own. Meaning, man, we don't have complete control about how long we have exit this world that chance could pass us by.
Amelia Antrim 49:08
This is very good. This is very good. I'm just
Amelia Antrim 49:24
I'll come back to you with my thoughts. All right. So let's go ahead and get into our last segment, which is our advancement discussion that Ryan has so hopefully named, take it up a level. Listeners I continue to be
Ryan Boelter 49:53
awesome. Well in this segment we will cover how Character advancement and growth works in the system. Over the course of a story, we often see characters grow and change as people with then the narrative. So what sort of changes happened to the characters in this game? Aside from the obvious ones?
Hannah Shaffer 50:17
Yeah, I mean, I, you know, I guess we've talked about some of it, like you're meeting these characters throughout the game. And the advancement to some extent is like, now we've played four sessions and you get to learn your name. This this gradual uncovering of meeting yourself is, is going to be a big one and also finding those those hits of like when we can really like definitely connect plot hits to things that would like, you know, jog your memory of themselves. So that's a big, you know, Big advancement is just going to be this gradual reveal of information. And I guess the you know, this these phases of the moon that shift the story will do that as well. And then we didn't get to see it as much but while there aren't like advancements for the in world characters, like you know, Camden doesn't have advancements per se there are things that as a result of scenes and troubles you know, will impact the in world characters.
Ryan Boelter 51:34
That's really interesting. So
Amelia Antrim 51:37
as as a person that very notably hates having to name characters, and then for some reason made a character creation podcast. I was really excited that one of the things is like you discover your name and I was like, Oh, that's so good. I can wait like force it or am I like pick that one last?
Amelia Antrim 52:00
I'm like, I don't know. Like I already have two children. I've already named the books because I make this podcast.
Unknown Speaker 52:09
Amelia Antrim 52:11
Quickly idea was originally meant to be played as a one shot. But we've talked about the fact that this new version can be used for campaigns. So how does like leveling up and advancement work? And are there mechanical changes associated with that? Or is it more the narrative changes of like discovering yourself?
Evan Rowland 52:31
This is a part of the game that's under active development. Yeah, there's a goal later for sure. To make it so that as you uncover the past of your ghost as you understand your character, you are also getting new tools to interact with and find out more and change more about the worlds that you're exploring. The nature of that is to pizza Did then the overall goal is that as you as a group are becoming comfortable with the system, and comfortable with the creation of these worlds and traveling through them, your ability to use the symbol reader to create characters to like, investigate the past and future of the society to investigate the outside world to figure out different ways of connecting the worlds that you've been to all become added to your toolkit.
Ryan Boelter 53:35
I'm really excited to see where the advancement and where the, like the deep campaigns can you know, in this sort of game
Amelia Antrim 53:48
yeah, I know that there's still a lot to work on but like, y'all, this is real good.
Amelia Antrim 54:00
That's great. That was really gratifying
Evan Rowland 54:01
Amelia Antrim 54:02
hear this. This was Yeah. I mean, maybe it's like it might just be like, exactly my thing like I like maybe I am the nice. We may do something for everybody like
Amelia Antrim 54:20
um, yeah, I really liked this and I would love to see how it would go over time when you start building like multiple worlds and knowing more about yourself as you start to interact with those worlds to is really fascinating to me.
Ryan Boelter 54:36
I'd also be very curious to see if he could revisit a world after you've left it.
Evan Rowland 54:39
Hannah Shaffer 54:40
yeah, that's one of the questions we're going to have. I mean, another question is like when your junk poet learns everything or junk poet, I'm still using you know, old cannon. When your ghost learns everything about themselves that there is to learn today. Pass on, like the you know, are they sort of released and now you pick it New junk poet, a new ghost. Maybe
Amelia Antrim 55:04
we'll just have, like, the reason that you were like haunting like, again, like any kind of like, Ghost movie or story. It's like, Oh, they have the reason. Yeah. can't continue on like, have you solved that problem? Yeah. So
Evan Rowland 55:18
the possibility of taking a beloved character from a world and elevating them to their own archetype.
Hannah Shaffer 55:26
Oh, wow, I hadn't even thought about that. Oh, my gosh.
Amelia Antrim 55:32
Write that down. Yeah.
Ryan Boelter 55:35
I'm so good.
Evan Rowland 55:36
I mean, this, this discussion about the game in every play test has consistently just been like a point of fascination and like excitement for everybody. Everybody we talked to just like, what are they going to do next? How does it change? What are they going to get out of it? And so
Unknown Speaker 56:00
We could live up to that.
Evan Rowland 56:03
That question, if we can come up with an answer that is as satisfying as you'd hope.
Amelia Antrim 56:10
I want to ask one more question. And, and it's not on the list, but it's still kind of has to do with this segment. Is it? Like, how much more difficult or less difficult I guess? Have you found it to try and make a game specifically that allows for campaigns versus a one shot? Like, is that a good? Do you go into it with a totally different design perspective? Or is it just like, we need to add more options so you can continue doing things or like, how has that worked out for you?
Hannah Shaffer 56:47
I think we're just going to be starting to answer that question soon. I mean, this is our first campaign game that we've made. And in some ways, I feel like we're cheating Because we're taking these worlds and like, you know, you could just play in a world for a session, and then you could play in another world for another session. But I think we do want to make, you know, have options for playing in a world for many, many sessions. So I feel like it's a lot harder. You know, because they're like mechanics that you can use, like in damn the man save that music. It has these really simple mechanics, there's sort of three things you can do in a scene, and then you play for a few hours. And like, those aren't mechanics I necessarily would want to see for like, repeated over a game that I played for years, but for a game where you have like, you know, half an hour to learn the rules and then play it with everybody. It works totally well. So I don't know this is a whole new challenge.
Evan Rowland 57:48
One of the big challenges of the campaign game is play testing a campaign.
Unknown Speaker 57:53
Amelia Antrim 57:56
Forgot entirely about that part.
Evan Rowland 58:00
I mean it's hard to get any group together for a campaign let alone a campaign version of a game that's in production where you have to restart sometimes because the game has changed so even if you manage to do everything and get the group together you're like up sorry that game we were playing doesn't exist anymore. There's a new one needs to start from scratch easy to test the first
Amelia Antrim 58:25
real learn the rules every time to then if there are different rules
Evan Rowland 58:31
Let's forget everything you knew about the previous game or we have to find new friends
Hannah Shaffer 58:39
I know are you sound like little men and black memory wiper existing friends very tricky
Amelia Antrim 58:47
and I think that like as a player that would be very fun though to like, constantly like sort of push it those boundaries and say like, you know, this thing definitely work. This thing definitely didn't end Then. Well, and then the question to have like, how much influence do the players have on what that future game looks like? Because that is also one campaign. Right? So like this mechanic that worked super great in the story we were telling, like, does that also translate over to an entirely different game? Oh, yeah.
Hannah Shaffer 59:20
Yeah. I mean, the years we actually play tested the first ever play test of India to was years ago. And we just kind of slapped the mechanics of the first question India into a game and ran it with some of our friends. And all of whom I think were game designers. And when we finished the campaign, I was like, f1, that worked great. We are just going to have such an easy time making this game and have like, Hannah, I'm sorry to say that was just our friends. Really nimble and like wonderful and enthusiastic people and they're there. It's possible There's not actually a lot of a game here.
Evan Rowland 1:00:04
Like, you know, let's have a scene, they'll be like, Great idea. It will have to do with the art
Amelia Antrim 1:00:15
I think to have their game designers to there's probably like some level of sort of like a base knowledge of how Yeah, games work and how mechanics work and like kind of coming into that. But we talked earlier about making this a game for people who haven't really played these kinds of games before to which adds a whole other level of like complexity to that design part. And, you know, trying to explain that to people who don't even really know what a role playing game is. Yeah. I do not envy that. Like, Oh man.
Ryan Boelter 1:00:57
Awesome. Well, there anything else you want to say before we wrap things up here?
Hannah Shaffer 1:01:06
I listened to design doc it's heard of the the strange darling of the one shot network. And it's, you know, it's probably at this point the best way to follow the progress on the game if you liked what you heard.
Ryan Boelter 1:01:21
Absolutely, I highly recommend it as well.
Hannah Shaffer 1:01:25
Got me so excited to see where this goes. Thank you. Yeah, thank you for playing. Yeah, you were our unwitting play testers to
Amelia Antrim 1:01:34
us, we don't play games.
Ryan Boelter 1:01:42
Awesome. Well, Evan and Hannah, thank you so much for joining us to talk about India and Firstly, India to Can you remind everyone where they can find you and how long we might have to wait for this game.
Amelia Antrim 1:01:58
Follow the progress of the
Evan Rowland 1:02:00
slip into the end.
Amelia Antrim 1:02:04
Okay, so like all of the questions How can people find you? How can they find quest land? Yeah, how can they follow the progress of what other things are you working on?
Hannah Shaffer 1:02:17
How can people find you Evan?
Evan Rowland 1:02:20
Um, people can find me on Twitter at a drawn novel. Um, they can find quest land, dia, they can find some information on our website, which is make big things.com but if they want to know every everything about Chris Landa to you should check out design doc on the one shot Podcast Network, where you can learn more than we remember even about the game.
Unknown Speaker 1:02:50
Hannah Shaffer 1:02:53
You got the archives?
Amelia Antrim 1:02:57
What about you Hannah.
Hannah Shaffer 1:02:59
If people Want to find me online? I am on twitter at hand bandit I have a Patreon I think also at hand bandit And where else there was something Oh, and in terms of when the game is going to be finished, it's we've had to swap production. This was supposed to be our next game, but we've swapped it with starship ultra Luxe. That's going to be coming out probably around January but frequently idea to I am like trying to convince Evan and Brian that we should be sort of releasing this game digitally on HBO in pieces and kind of continuing in the design experience with you know, this public design process. So if I can convince them maybe the game will be available very soon in some playable format, if not have to listen to design doc to find out because I don't know how
Amelia Antrim 1:04:02
To be determined. Well, thank you again both of you for sitting down with us. This was so much fun. And thank you to everyone for listening. Character Creation Cast is a production of the one shot Podcast Network, and can be found online at www dot Character Creation cast.com. head to the website to get more information on our hosts and guests or even find some of our character sheets. Character Creation Cast can be found on Twitter at Creation Cast. I'm one of your hosts Amelia Antrim and I can be found on twitter at ginger reckoning. Our other host Ryan bolter can be found on twitter at Lord Neptune. Music for this episode is used with a Creative Commons license, or with permission from the podcast that originated from further information can be found within the show notes. Our main theme music is hero remix. I Steve comes and as you With a Creative Commons license, this podcast is owned by us under Creative Commons. This episode was edited by Amelia and Trump. Further information for the game system used, and today's guests can also be found in the show notes. If you like the game systems discussed and wish to purchase them, links to the products can be found in the show notes. Also check our notes or the website for cool stuff to go with each character. Like thanks or mixtapes. Thanks for joining us. And remember, we find that the best part of any role playing game is character creation. So go out there and create some amazing people will see you next time.
Amelia Antrim 1:05:41
Now we got to read some show blurbs show blurbs show show show blurbs. Character Creation Cast is hosted by the one shot Podcast Network. If you enjoyed our show, visit one shot podcast com where you'll find other great shows like arms of the tide.
Ryan Boelter 1:06:00
terms of the tide is an actual play about fighting for what's right and in original magic technological world on the brink of catastrophe, using the mutants in the night system. Join Quinn, Joe Chanelle and john and revel in the laughs and gasp at the drama. While the only thing standing against the apocalypse are a robot with a fondness for stray cats, a wolf made of living plants with a bad case of depression and a private eye who's so done with all of this? He.
Unknown Speaker 1:06:35
Okay, good. Okay, cool. That's a
Unknown Speaker 1:06:41
Amelia Antrim 1:06:42
That's as good as it's gonna get.
Ryan Boelter 1:06:47
I'm at the start of Week Five of bronchitis. Oh, I'm so sorry. So if I cough into the microphone on accident, I apologize.
Evan Rowland 1:06:55
How is week five comparing to the other weeks?
Ryan Boelter 1:06:58
Much better I'm still miserable, though, because I don't want to be coughing anyway.
Unknown Speaker 1:07:04
Yeah, yeah, that stuff can just ever
Ryan Boelter 1:07:08
I know. Although it timed it perfectly to probably clear up the week of a cat a con,
Amelia Antrim 1:07:16
quote just in time to like, be around
Ryan Boelter 1:07:18
contract. And I know right.
Amelia Antrim 1:07:21
I say though I've actually never gotten concrete.
Hannah Shaffer 1:07:23
Like, that's amazing. I think I've never not gotten and
Amelia Antrim 1:07:27
I so I've worked in health care for 15 years. I have two small children. My mom also works in healthcare. Like my ex husband worked in a school like I think I'm just like immune to everything you have just like a super system. Like there's nothing at a con that I'm not already picking up from two small Elementary. Yeah.
Ryan Boelter 1:07:51
I don't think I've gotten it either. I use a liberal supply of hand sanitizer.
Unknown Speaker 1:07:57
Ryan Boelter 1:07:59
Generally seems to Well and drink a lot of credit on everybody. Yeah,
Unknown Speaker 1:08:05
just like slather
Amelia Antrim 1:08:06
this all over yourself before he even talked to me that'd be great.
Evan Rowland 1:08:10
Let me shake your hand and your face and let me get a little bit of your arms
Amelia Antrim 1:08:17
sounds like the time my mom was googling whether you can breathe a
Unknown Speaker 1:08:19
Amelia Antrim 1:08:23
smells so bad I can I give her a bath till tomorrow like can I use for breeze on a dog you can I supposed to record to you and I had a co host I was like okay hang on I'll be right there were Google
Ryan Boelter 1:08:42
that's important information.
Amelia Antrim 1:08:43
It is these are things you need to do there need to know fact
Ryan Boelter 1:08:49
it's kind of warming here, but I just had some super happy so I know it's not normally that warm. That's fast. But like I said, I just had some hot tea. So that would make sense.
Amelia Antrim 1:09:02
Are you wearing our podcast?
Evan Rowland 1:09:03
Stephen to Asana? It's a dangerous game. Of course I'm wearing our podcast shirt.
Ryan Boelter 1:09:09
It's cozy and it's fashionable. You can get yours at the one shot podcast store right now. Just like this banner, that's so awesome MMO I know I'm gonna forget this to bring to it con table for a panel. Oh, officially everything
Amelia Antrim 1:09:30
should the image like resolution for the G five or one wasn't like big enough to do the banner you can be like everything else was kind of bummed.
Hannah Shaffer 1:09:39
We make games. I'm going to just start that again. We make what do we do? Who are we now is the perfect time for an existential crisis.
Evan Rowland 1:10:02
literally a metaphor for the plate literally
Hannah Shaffer 1:10:11
be right back in English class
Evan Rowland 1:10:16
back 20 years sitting in English
Ryan Boelter 1:10:18
but it's technically true
Ryan Boelter 1:10:26
how's your voice holding up? voices fight the random coughing that just took some day cold. So let's hope through powering through
Unknown Speaker 1:10:41
the show bust
Evan Rowland 1:10:46
I've been really enjoying and reacting to everything that's been happening here on mute
Unknown Speaker 1:10:50
OU behind me.
Unknown Speaker 1:10:56
Oh, that's funny. Yeah, I guess without your Yeah, we've
Hannah Shaffer 1:11:02
decided that we all hate you during the break and you're getting the silent treatment
Evan Rowland 1:11:08
so it took me a solid 10 minutes to realize so I don't know what that I'm I'm ready to be a ghost.
Ryan Boelter 1:11:17
What's really funny though is you had this on mute and zoom. But was your actual microphone muted?
Evan Rowland 1:11:26
No. So now not all this
Amelia Antrim 1:11:27
cannot be a bonus audio
Ryan Boelter 1:11:33
all we do okay so yeah. Oh my god Well, thanks future right all right, here we go. gonna come to me Leah back in 321 quickie
Amelia Antrim 1:11:51
I did it.
Ryan Boelter 1:11:53
Yeah, very distinct we formed
Amelia Antrim 1:11:57
during the break. I was going to check out my children but they left and What outside their door that says caution, danger inside, so I'm going to assume everything's fine. And they'll come get me if they need me. Like a little triangle with an exclamation point in it, too. So it looks very serious,
Hannah Shaffer 1:12:15
like a very official caution sign.
Amelia Antrim 1:12:17
Yeah, absolutely. So I was like, you have to leave that alone.
Ryan Boelter 1:12:23
If it's beneficial, you have to
Amelia Antrim 1:12:24
I mean, they're quiet though. So like, that's the part that's concerning to me. Sounds like something's up in there.
Ryan Boelter 1:12:31
They're probably just reading. You
Amelia Antrim 1:12:33
know, Nate already read the book that I got him on Wednesday. He read it by the end of Wednesday. Mind he didn't get home from school until 615. Wow, like 930 at night. He was done with the book already. Oh, wow. I told him no more books for a little bit. I've bought four of them in the last two weeks.
Ryan Boelter 1:12:52
He has to wait until you got to go to the library and just get a stack of them
Amelia Antrim 1:12:55
but he reread them so like and I don't mind they're like scholastic you know. Graphic Novels um, but so like seven or eight bucks I don't really care the other kid will read them eventually but like I told him he has to wait until his next book that we've pre ordered comes but that's in like two weeks so he'll be okay. he'll survive somehow there you go
Evan Rowland 1:13:18
he's just going to be reading anything he can get his hands on Yeah,
Hannah Shaffer 1:13:21
Amelia Antrim 1:13:22
Oh my gosh, who knows? Things you can find and labels
Amelia Antrim 1:13:28
know he's been reading Malia Mr. Tags book The which boy CO and so like then the third one comes out like next week or week after so he'll have to wait until then. Oh my gosh, my dad's like cleaning the garage and so like he keeps opening and closing the garage door and it like just keep it open. I don't I don't know. That's like in the background of all this audio this like
Ryan Boelter 1:14:04
It's easy to remove though.
Unknown Speaker 1:14:07
The white noise
Hannah Shaffer 1:14:11
What about you weapon?
Evan Rowland 1:14:12
My appearance is a small garden snake. And my manner is rough edged and loving.
Amelia Antrim 1:14:26
Did we lose?
Hannah Shaffer 1:14:27
I think we've lost lost you for a second. Oh, my bad. Yeah,
Ryan Boelter 1:14:31
yes. It seems like you are Yes.
Evan Rowland 1:14:34
Okay, I thought you were just like really
Amelia Antrim 1:14:39
knowing you before.
Evan Rowland 1:14:49
Definitely. I'm gonna stick with it. Okay. And
Amelia Antrim 1:14:59
now he's playing Like very loud music in the garage like all my audio and like I'm
Unknown Speaker 1:15:06
very frustrated getting more and more exciting
Amelia Antrim 1:15:10
banging things around for a while there was a lawn mower run
Unknown Speaker 1:15:15
Hannah Shaffer 1:15:15
mower when you're doing the podcast. Yeah I
Amelia Antrim 1:15:18
love that one. Also he's having back surgery in like three days so he should not be doing any of these things yeah
Evan Rowland 1:15:30
so I makeup person. They're definitely not going to be
Unknown Speaker 1:15:35
Unknown Speaker 1:15:38
Amelia Antrim 1:15:41
oh my god now we're starting up the Mustang. oh nine that's okay, that's fine great I'm so sorry Ryan okay
Hannah Shaffer 1:15:57
maybe Evan you cut out again. Oh really? Yeah
Evan Rowland 1:16:01
But for now Yeah, you're good now. I wonder why I'm cutting out. I just don't know. I wonder how often that's
Hannah Shaffer 1:16:10
mostly you've seen present.
Amelia Antrim 1:16:12
I guess we'll find out when we go to edit everything
Unknown Speaker 1:16:17
Transcribed by https://otter.ai