Character Creation Cast

Series 50.3 - Dungeons and Dragons 5E with Aram and Dylan [Kill Every Monster] (Discussion)

Episode Summary

Welcome to the final episode of series 50, everyone! This series, we welcome Aram and Dylan from the Kill Every Monster Podcast, to revisit Dungeons and Dragons 5E by utilizing supplements to enhance your games. This episode we discuss how the process went and try to make sense of whatever this was in our fanfic portion!

Episode Notes

Welcome to the final episode of series 50, everyone! This series, we welcome Aram and Dylan from the Kill Every Monster Podcast, to revisit Dungeons and Dragons 5E by utilizing supplements to enhance your games. This episode we discuss how the process went and try to make sense of whatever this was in our fanfic portion!


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Guests and Projects:

Aram Vartian @AramVartian

Dylan Malenfant @DJMalenfant

Kill Every Monster @KEMPodcast

Games and Tools discussed this episode:

Dungeons and Dragons 5E:

D&D Beyond:

Monsters of the Multiverse (Orc Ancestry):

Guildmaster’s Guide to Ravnica (Loxodon Ancestry):

Tales of Arcana 5e Race Guide (Hologod and Vroom vroom Ancestries):

Planet Apocalypse (Blood of the Lost Sorcerer Variant):

Nightfell (Rogue Variant, Backgrounds):

Dragon Stew (Baker Background)




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Character Creation Cast:

Amelia Antrim:

Ryan Boelter:

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Episode Transcription

Transcripts Automatically Generated - Not 100% Accurate

Amelia Antrim  0:01  

Welcome to the final episode of Series 50. And also apparently our 200th Episode somehow,


Ryan Boelter  0:08  

something like that. Yeah, with


Amelia Antrim  0:12  

round numbers. We had a fantastic discussion for this one, it was a great time it was we thought it would be a short recording, and it was not shocking, I know. But first, you have to suffer through this cold open. But we can't wait for you to hear what we have in store. So let's go. Let's do it. Announcements.


Ryan Boelter  0:34  

All right, first up, we are excited to announce that we will not be taking a two week break at the end of this month, we normally would no more work. But instead we are going to be releasing some answers to a bunch of your questions. Will it be two episodes? Absolutely. Will it be more than two episodes rather probably. So stay tuned for those. We had a lot of fun recording this. And we hope you have a lot of fun listening and getting to know us better and and hopefully taking away some we think good advice along the way.


Amelia Antrim  1:13  

Honestly, in also like a quick thank you. They were really thoughtful questions. I mean, most of them. And then also Jude submitted some questions, but they were really thoughtful. And I think we had to we had to really put in some work to come up with good answers for some of them. So yeah,


Ryan Boelter  1:28  

I really enjoyed it. Thank you. I'm


Amelia Antrim  1:31  

exciting. We have new merch available. I'm so excited about this. After four long years of waiting, you can now own more than one c three shirt. And thanks to a bout of very serious insomnia. We have great stuff for you. Our newest design is based off series 41.3, where we created the Sims four esports team. Yeah, when we played postmatch interview, we thought we were hilarious. And I don't know if our listeners loved it as much as we did, we had like the best time. And so when I got the chance to like start playing around with some potential shirt designs, that's where my brain went. So that's what I made. So that shirt is available in the One Shot T public store now and you can find a link in our show notes. If you would like to wrap your Sims for Esports pride.


Ryan Boelter  2:27  

Yeah, absolutely. Another announcement is I have a new game out in the world right now. It is a micro RPG, that where you play as actual bees that can magically transform into magical Guardian bees. But you're on vacation, and, you know, vacation from saving the world. Constantly. Don't


Amelia Antrim  2:53  

take vacations tonight, it's


Ryan Boelter  2:55  

a nice time to unwind at the beach, or wherever you want to go on vacation. And your arch nemesis just cannot stop. So what balance Come on, are you to do exactly. So it's a it's it should be a really fun two to four hour game where you could create characters in minutes. And I created my own dice resolution system. For this. I am planning to make more games with this dice resolution system. And I'm just calling the whole group of games powered by the hive. Because it's a dice pool mechanic where you build a dice pool and the more dice you have, the more interesting results you can get. So I'm really I'm really excited to see what people think about it. I think it's adorable. I really want to play it. And I did the graphics for it and but it was not a fun


Amelia Antrim  3:52  

graphics for things like we I made a t shirt.


Ryan Boelter  3:56  

You did you made multiple shirt designs. And eventually we will get around to posting those. Well, we didn't want to we wanted the tests to see how the process worked with this one shirt design. Now we know and now we have a better idea what to do when we start submitting groups of shirt design. So well we'll see how that goes.


Amelia Antrim  4:15  

Yeah, hopefully more merch coming soon. And hopefully you'll have lots more games.


Ryan Boelter  4:18  

Yeah, absolutely. So yeah, check out my Twitch page, Lord Or you can go to my twitter at and learn them tune in and find my link to my various things there. So a lot of ways to find it, but I love it and yeah, it's it's it should be a lot of fun. I had a lot of fun making it. We actually


Amelia Antrim  4:42  

have one new review to read this week. We do after the show you have to wait. But we would love to be able to keep reading them because this is going to be two episodes in a row and that is a very exciting, cool feeling. However, we need your help for that. So please consider leaving us a review if you have not yet That's even five star ratings help us. You can leave them on Apple podcasts, podcasts or a podcast addict or our Facebook page. If you want other ways to connect with us other than leaving reviews you can follow us on our many social medias. We are on Instagram at creation cast on tick tock at Character Creation Cast more on Twitter at creation cast. Or you can join our Discord at discord dot character creation I'm sensing a


Ryan Boelter  5:30  

theme. Yeah, also of note on Spotify, you can rate our podcast as well if you are using the mobile version of Spotify. Interesting. Yeah, you can't review it. But you can leave a five star review or rating that it's good. Yeah, exactly. And then the more that people rate it, the ratings will actually start showing up apparently. So it'd be cool if you could throw five stars our way in Spotify if that's the way you listen. So if you are listening to this the day of release one more big announcement it is miracle Monday.


Amelia Antrim  6:04  

Miracle Monday,


Ryan Boelter  6:06  

all day to day. Yeah, all day today. The one shot Twitch stream will be featuring a variety of superhero themed content also help raise money for trans lifeline. There will even be in AP a fee train us along with a Jeff and John playing our Marvel Superheroes characters that we translated into sentinels so you can follow along all day over at Shot RPG.


Amelia Antrim  6:37  

That is it for announcements. Please join us after the episode for our calls to action and a review. And also I think outtakes too. Yes, maybe some? I don't know. I feel like goof around at all. So


Ryan Boelter  6:52  

I literally have to cut out at least an hour and a half of outtakes just so we can't have this be a four hour episode.


Amelia Antrim  6:59  

Okay, well listen here. It was good stuff. Anyway, enjoy the show


Amelia Antrim  7:39  

Welcome back to our discussion episode. Last time we finished mostly our session zero for d&d. This episode we are going to be discussing the character creation process. We are thrilled to welcome back Dylan and ROM have killed the kill every monster podcast. Do you both want to reintroduce yourselves for everyone at home? And please tell us a little bit about the characters that you made last time.


Dylan Malenfant  8:04  

Hi, my name is Dylan My pronouns are he him and I'm the co hosts co producer and general keep on rails server of the kill every monster podcast and responsible adults I


Amelia Antrim  8:18  

think it's the title you're looking for.


Dylan Malenfant  8:20  

That's still pushing it a little too far.


Aram Vartian  8:22  

Order Muppet


Unknown Speaker  8:23  

yeah yeah,


Dylan Malenfant  8:25  

yeah, I think that's fair. And I made a honestly as yet unnamed because this is the part I struggle with the most with characters work cleric Baker who's freely like and I think this is something we're going to talk about a little bit more in a minute. The role in the party is so wildly undefined


Amelia Antrim  8:52  

yeah I don't think any of us have have figured out well we'll see how this works. If it works we'll


Ryan Boelter  8:58  

see how it'll work. It has to says DND


Aram Vartian  9:05  

and I am wrong var tn I am the other half of kill every monster I'm here with my good friend Dylan


Dylan Malenfant  9:13  



Aram Vartian  9:15  

care about each other very much and love each other and are super excited to show up on shows together. Always tethered aside today. I am played Julie sex in jewelry sex is a elephant I've decided what kind of elephant by the way I've actually thought there's two. There are lots of types of


Unknown Speaker  9:37  

elephants. Pretty sure time.


Amelia Antrim  9:41  

Elephants, Asian elephant different


Aram Vartian  9:42  

types of elephants heffalumps Yeah, Shaggy. Mammoth shaggy big yeah shaggy big so I am shaggy big so I am a shit but it's all like super nicely combed. Like it's all kind of in like waves and and you know patterns like like It's like L'Oreal from


Dylan Malenfant  10:03  

back mammoth.


Aram Vartian  10:05  

A pompadour going on here.


Amelia Antrim  10:07  

Elvis mammoth.


Unknown Speaker  10:09  

Yeah. All right, perfect.


Aram Vartian  10:14  

And I play my trunk like a saxophone. Yeah. And my nickname is saxophone. So it's actually Johnny saxophone sax, please.


Unknown Speaker  10:25  

Every one of these is a dagger into Dylan's


Amelia Antrim  10:28  

like see him slowly dying


Ryan Boelter  10:30  

with Johnny to six.


Dylan Malenfant  10:34  

We'll do this recording in two sessions, and then we'll have some time to recover and then we start back up and Ramiz. Like literally just start by beating you to death with a frying pan.


Aram Vartian  10:44  

Every time I get Dylan to side directly into the microphone with get a new patron. It's amazing.


Amelia Antrim  10:53  

Incredible. Ryan, you want to tell us a little bit about what you made?


Ryan Boelter  10:58  

My character is probably the most normal character out of all of us.


Amelia Antrim  11:01  

Yeah, I think that like this most basic like rules as written d&d.


Ryan Boelter  11:05  

Yeah, I have a very clear role being in the party. You know, I like get a little tired often. You know, there's I made a I made a broom broom rug. So a broom broom for those not familiar in the d&d system, which is probably everybody. It's essentially in car. In organic sentient car. To be clear. There is a from from variant that could have been an awakened actual car.


Unknown Speaker  11:42  

But to


Amelia Antrim  11:45  

stick with, like, we want


Aram Vartian  11:47  

the world to allow for a car to exist. Yeah.


Dylan Malenfant  11:51  

Having a sapient race of car people that was much easier to enter. Exactly.


Ryan Boelter  11:56  

So my character's name is Kat ka t t, which stands for night agents 2000. Because the rogue variant that I took was a night agent variant from I forget which supplement we use, but it's in the show notes. And this character, it literally moonlights as a super spy, because depending on the phase of the moon, they get different abilities and whatnot.


Aram Vartian  12:29  

Are any of them not looking like a car? Because that seems like it would be really difficult for a spy.


Ryan Boelter  12:34  

I think everybody doesn't look like a car except for me. Look, there's probably other rooms around, like spies


Amelia Antrim  12:40  

have caught like spy car, but like you would never expect the spy to be the car, you would be looking for a spy in a car.


Aram Vartian  12:47  

This is a world where we're used to seeing cars.


Unknown Speaker  12:50  

We should, we should start to


Dylan Malenfant  12:52  

think that's one of the next bits. Yeah.


Unknown Speaker  12:56  

Fair enough. Sorry. Sorry.


Unknown Speaker  12:59  

We'll figure that out.


Ryan Boelter  13:02  

But yeah, I had a lot of fun making this character and what we'll see how it all fits together in a bit, but really, really proud of Kat and her contributions to this, this group. Amelia, how about your character?


Amelia Antrim  13:18  

Ah, so I picked to play eight digit God. So I'm actually a digital construct, but also a god, but slightly evil, and trying not to be evil. So I do have one of the the notes for my class or for my race is that you are a humanoid, but you're considered to be a fiend whenever it is detrimental for you.


Aram Vartian  13:43  

So bad, you're just coded that way. Right. Exactly.


Amelia Antrim  13:47  

Exactly. And then I also am sorcerer, the blood of the last sorcerer named Alexa. Good. You might be bad, right?


Ryan Boelter  13:59  

We're also touched by evil for your background. Right? Yes. Amazing. Right.


Amelia Antrim  14:03  

Right. So, but like, I'm trying to do better, maybe that's pretending to try to do better. To be fair,


Aram Vartian  14:11  

you have started out with some you know, some there was a little beyond your fault. You know, you really did you weren't responsible for the hole Touched by an evil thing. Right. Right. So okay, yeah, you're working your way back. Right? Yeah, it's


Amelia Antrim  14:23  

not my fault. I started out as a as a virus. But


Aram Vartian  14:26  

also you could be like uniquely reprogrammed to be good or evil. Like, honestly, like when we when we figured this out. We're


Dylan Malenfant  14:36  

gonna get into the philosophy of if a person can actually be represented by codes. What are the ethics of a reprogramming? Right. We don't need that, though.


Amelia Antrim  14:49  

I think we're starting to have that conversation.


Ryan Boelter  14:50  

We can leave that for the fanfic. It's fine, you know, well, I think we can dive into what our world had become in In the fan fiction portion, so let's go ahead and dive right into a segment we are calling the 20. For your thoughts,


Amelia Antrim  15:06  

the 20 for your thoughts. So in this segment, we like to talk to our guests about their thoughts on the character creation process, how it relates to this system and to other games. But first, the number one cliche question of all RPG podcasts. Please tell us how you got into RPGs in the first place. How did you end up here? How did your life come to this?


Dylan Malenfant  15:31  

I asked myself that every day. In the old times, I had a friend who, like knew some people through a forum and they were trying to do like an online. He was a dark heresy game. And I got really excited about it as my first exposure to any RPGs I had like a bunch of books. I read through all of them. And the game never happened. Just fell apart immediately. Oh, no. Did not get off the ground, the real RPG experience. I started off with a full understanding of what the hobby was.


Amelia Antrim  16:06  

Yeah, I was talking about it never doing and never doing.


Dylan Malenfant  16:09  

So one day well, me and this friend were walking around talking to Alex Bohr who was on kill every monster in the flump episode, and he was fantastic. Even if he betrayed me. He, we were telling him about this whole thing you know about how this game works and all that and then he comes back to us two weeks later, Hey, I found a bunch of friends. We're gonna try playing Dungeons and Dragons. I know, that's not the game you were looking at. But I don't really get how this works. You guys want to help me run this. So we ran our first campaign, all of us kind of by the seat of our pants, just trying to figure it out as we went along as a weird little GM Triumvirate. We're like, mostly say, you've worked surprisingly well, because like, I kind of kept the broad thing under control. I ran most of the game and then Alex was running a lot of combat and NPCs and our last DM was kind of a rules monkey like running the the lookups taking over where he had to. Just anytime we had to double check, a feat text because God 3.5 What else gave for looking stuff up? But yeah, no, that's that's how we ran every session. We went to the monster manual and we're like, What monster? Do we want to make them fight next week? Well level they have to be okay. Send them a message. Tell them to level up to level five. It will make them fight this next week. We based every session around just what are we going to make them fight?


Unknown Speaker  17:42  

Oh, that's why it's kind of cool though. He was he was he


Dylan Malenfant  17:45  

was he was coherent plot for GMs. And one player knows three GMs and six players. Oh, wow. But like I said, one of us was just looking up rules making sure we had that everybody kind of knew what they were doing. One person was running the world and one person was basically running the people within the world.


Amelia Antrim  18:07  

That seems like a really good way to do a starter game though. It is not dependent, especially in d&d on one DM to know all the rules and do all the things we talked about in our last episodes, this game is really not balanced that way as far as workload, no way to just sort of stumble into doing


Dylan Malenfant  18:28  

splitting it across things. And that's the other thing is like, those are the loose slots, right. But obviously we like blood between it where like, if I had to double check something because I was going to make a call based on her I was gonna make a move based on it, I would be looking something up and Alex would step up and start running the game. And you know, our other friend Matt would be like taking care of some other side things. Or every once in a while, we'd have one player who wants to do another thing. And we just have a DM running with them for whatever nonsense little sidebar they wanted to do with just an ear open to the table to make sure nothing important was happening. Yeah, so we could pull it all back together. It works. That's very cool. But it's also like any game requires chemistry, right? If you don't like your fellow players, the game sucks. Your DMS all have to be on a common wavelength. Right?


Amelia Antrim  19:19  

Yeah, that's one of those things that like as you're describing it, like it sounds really cool. But it almost seems like the kind of thing that you have to stumble into. Because I think if I tried to build that it would never work. Like it wouldn't have to have just the right people and just that like, yeah, like a perfect storm to make it happen.


Dylan Malenfant  19:36  

I think you could do it if you were either one running from a module or to like fully ground up like you and I are gonna sit down. We're gonna build a world and talk about how we want it to work and how the plot is gonna go. But like, that is way more time investment than most ATMs. Honestly put in normally to run it themselves


Amelia Antrim  19:57  

or have as adult


Dylan Malenfant  19:59  

God Two sessions a week where one was the actual game. And the other one was the three of us getting together and planning the game for three or four days from then


Ryan Boelter  20:09  

on amazing. I just


Amelia Antrim  20:10  

remember in high school like playing every Saturday for like four or five hours, and I just now like, we can barely manage every two weeks. Like I just like, how did I do that?


Dylan Malenfant  20:21  

I don't think I've run a game that wasn't some form of content in two or three years. Yeah, I have not adult is garbage.


Amelia Antrim  20:35  

I tried to play one game in the last year. And it was for content. Yeah, there you go. Yeah, the good old days. We did things for fun. What about your, um, how did you get started?


Aram Vartian  20:49  

So my brother and I had a babysitter. I was about eight or nine, Rafi was about six or seven. lol was about 12 or 13. It was that, you know, were these old enough. Watch it for a couple hours during the day kind of babysitter. And we were not trouble but you know, energetic. And so we needed to be directed. And I think like the third time he came over he out of desperation was like, Okay, you want let's try this. And he had brought over his d&d stuff and say, I'm gonna run you through a little game gonna be your view was your you're gonna do this, let's, let's play this out. And I was just transported and completely engaged in a way that I had not been about anything. Up until that point and few things since frankly, it was a way where I could do everything I wanted to do right away have, you know, it wasn't like a game wasn't like Zork. There were options. It was clear, you could do whatever you wanted. But it was also like that, because it was cool. It was building a world. And it was also I could act and therefore I could speak because that's back when my stuttering was so bad. And I really couldn't string three words together, I couldn't go to McDonald's with my friends because I couldn't say quarter pounder, when they came out with that numeric system. That was the closest I've ever gotten to believing in God because I can say number three, no pickles, but quarter pounder was really hard. Right? So I was struggling, like just to speak. And then I would start acting. And I wouldn't stutter for, you know, minutes on end,


Amelia Antrim  22:30  

because you realize that self consciousness because you aren't you?


Aram Vartian  22:33  

Yeah, it's that and there's also like the all this science around like when we speak in unison. Also, when we sing, we don't stutter. There's just these ways that speech plays in different parts of the brain. And so having that freedom, for the first time to just be able to speak and express myself without the hangups without having to stop without having to, you know, struggle or be afraid of what I was going to stammer over next. Yeah, that combination just was transformative.


Amelia Antrim  23:03  

I, I have read so much. And even just like in my experience with my kids, and doing so like seen how much there is for kids and like learning and growth and stuff and role playing games that I really, really wish we use the more in schools and like education and things like that, because there's so many benefits that like Apparently, they've been doing a lot of studies and everything that in therapy with kids for various things to that it's like doing roleplay, especially through like d&d, or something with rules that are like kind of defined that it's worked really well for kids in a lot of ways. And there's also like that rolling the dice, like the instant gratification of like, I did a thing and then it happens and like, you know, there's just so much there. But it


Aram Vartian  23:48  

makes a lot of sense with therapy. And anytime you can reframe an experience, and then re experience it, but in a safer a place where you can kind of read with more control self. Yeah, role playing is a perfect way to do exactly that. I


Amelia Antrim  24:02  

also think it's a really great tool for empathy, it's one of the few things that we can do that we can very easily like slot ourselves into the position of another person and try and like live that experience in a way that we can't in other games and stories and things like that, too. So it's a really good tool for that kind of stuff. But I know even for me personally getting to like play out things that are traumatic for me in a safer space where I have control over the outcome is huge.


Aram Vartian  24:30  

Also it's explorative like I can't tell you how many friends of mine during the during lockdown for two years, right? They were like, I played a lot of games and it turns out I found out something about myself I'm going to change my pronouns like so many friends like like they found time to explore in game it's like oh wait a minute, that means something and then was able to apply it to the I think that's amazing.


Amelia Antrim  24:53  

Like I can play it somebody else I can explore what it's like to live under these different pronouns as this different person to you know, like to explore We are romance and you know all of those things that I can't do just


Dylan Malenfant  25:04  

wherever put a but in this, there's a major caveat. d&d is very useful for exploration. It's very useful for stuff like therapy, the DM is not your therapist, your group is not your therapy. stuff you've got through through, you're actually like, deep seated, like, do not take that to your table as a replacement for actual therapy.


Amelia Antrim  25:28  

No, no. And also, like, you know, like, do this as part of a session zero. And I think we've, I think, I think that Ryan and I talked about in our sessions episode, about, you know, making sure that your group is okay with playing out some of those themes, because there are people that I'll play with that are like, totally, let's let's explore those things. Let's see what happens. And then there are other people that are like, No, I'm just here to have a good time and play as a car. You know, we're not


Aram Vartian  25:56  

car, traumatized card, just a car.


Amelia Antrim  26:01  

Just a car, not a yes. Not a traumatized car and


Aram Vartian  26:05  

cursing car.


Amelia Antrim  26:07  

Right? Maybe cursed. Car said, but not cursing?


Aram Vartian  26:11  

Oh, no, they're happy to happy car.


Amelia Antrim  26:14  

Okay. Yeah, it's definitely the kinds of things that you should talk about with your group. And you know, it's not a replacement for therapy. But I do think has a lot of good opportunities. For some of those things, too.


Ryan Boelter  26:28  

Every single time at work, whenever they say, We should probably do some team building exercises, or whatever my first thought is, can we roleplay? Yeah, can we get out some dice and some books and, and play some characters and play during work? For a team? That


Amelia Antrim  26:46  

looks interesting? Wouldn't it be fun that because my boss is always looking for, like team building things? And there's only like, eight of us? Yeah. So it's like somebody should run us through.


Ryan Boelter  26:55  

I wanted to suggest that every single time but like, I'm like, there's no way they're gonna allow four hours out of a day,


Aram Vartian  27:03  

you'd be surprised my brother is like in this super corporate, like, like digital signage, right thing. And he's been like, okay, let's workshops. So we've been working out, like, how do we go to a corporation and have like, a four hour thing or like a half day thing, maybe even a full day thing? Where we use role playing to help them get together breakout? Like how do we do this, and then sell it as a corporate package. And then behind it, like, as far as professional DMing, you can add a zero as soon as you make it corporate. So whatever, you're, if you're pulling 30 Here, you can charge them 300. And they're lining up to do it, like people are already doing it. On the corporate level.


Dylan Malenfant  27:42  

Yes, it's absolutely a thing that already exists. And you just have to get your people on board, which makes it easier because you can then come go like, hey, look, these are companies that are actually doing it and talking about the benefits of it, and then you can make the company pay you more money.


Aram Vartian  27:58  

You got to be careful, like, like you don't go from role playing, you know, exercises for Raytheon. Right. But for some people Sure.


Ryan Boelter  28:05  

Yeah, absolutely. So what do you to look for in a system as far as character creation goes, like, what, what sort of pieces need to be there for great characters to happen?


Dylan Malenfant  28:19  

So for me, the major thing I want, and this is gonna come back to me attacking 3.5 is transparency. There are a lot of feats in you know, 3.5, where it's not clear how they interact with like the fiction how they would come up. And then it turns out that they're part of like a prerequisite chain. So when you want to build a character that can do X, you need to take y, z. And like for other feats, and you have to build it up, right. And when you're playing through it, and you're talking with the group, you can come up with the most brilliant fiction in the world. But if the game lies are Mr. Rex, you on how to make that occur mechanically. You're screwed. Like, that's the entire game like, yeah, so just present the choices that you want the players to be able to make in a game like d&d, that is 98% combat, tell them this is a combat ability, it does this, this is how it works. This is a ability that will not really work in combat, but it's going to be useful in these scenarios. Don't put trap options in there, that kind of stuff. Like I just want to be able to build the character that I have in my head and know that it works.


Amelia Antrim  29:30  

And to know that if I pick a choice, it's something that I'll get to use because there's nothing worse than like having those options being like I picked this really cool ability. It's never gonna come up,


Dylan Malenfant  29:38  

Jeff and John talks about it a lot in system mastery trap options where something is explicitly not useful. But they put it in the game for completeness. We're just like, why why would I ever pick that ability? There's no cost for that. Yeah. And it's It's


Amelia Antrim  29:57  

so disappointing when you sit down I want to like, especially as a player who's never played that game before, like, I built this really cool character, and it's gonna be really great. And you sit down. And it's like nothing on my sheet is useful here. Yeah. Which is another one of those like cold session zero. But I've been there before, like, you make this really cool character that was like, I've got this great idea and this great concept, and then you sit down and you're useless.


Dylan Malenfant  30:24  

I was having a conversation with someone earlier this week where I built a character in a pathfinder game where I was like, I was the item maker, you know, I had all the item creation feats. And then as you're playing, you start to realize, like, the thing I'm good for is when we're told we got downtime, by a discount code. It's cheaper than having someone else make it. But now when we're in combat, I don't have the feats built up to be effective or useful. So sort of trapped. The character, like, I can't contribute until we're actually not playing the game. And then my contribution is to make everyone else better at the game. Yeah, that stopped being fun immediately. Yeah. Yeah. And that's, I think, a problem with games like this same time being told like you're the guy who can make the sword into a plus three flaming sword. That sounds awesome. It isn't. It's a lie.


Amelia Antrim  31:17  

Right? Right. Yeah. Which is a problem of game like this, where it's like, oh, you can do all these things in downtime. Cool. But like, none of the game is actually about downtime,


Aram Vartian  31:25  

about down time. Yeah. And also, if you play, if you play d&d, the way it's supposed to, quote, unquote, supposed to be played with a grid with four encounters, in between every long rests on that kind of scale words, just combat a little bit of text, and then introduce your basically box text that introduce you to the next combat. If you were to play it in that method, then some of the game starts to make more sense, right? Oh, okay. Well, that's why all this stuff happens. But if you're actually playing a character, if you're role playing at all, you have to chip away at some of that, because there becomes no room you can't if you're running for combat, you absolutely do not have room to talk to each other or share a campfire story, you have to pull away from that. And then once you start pulling away, the math is wrong. So all of d&d for the way that the majority of people are playing it now. Doesn't work for the math that they have set up. On for every monster for every encounter, for every long rest, like it just no longer works. So if trying to adhere to that, and say like, well, I have to do this in order to play d&d, you don't you just have to understand the numbers just enough to make the numbers work and have consistency. And then you can basically do whatever you want.


Amelia Antrim  32:48  

Yeah, right. Which comes back to a discussion that we, you know, we had in previous episodes is like, what, what still is d&d, right, you know, like how much downtime and role playing and all that can you have where it's still d&d?


Dylan Malenfant  33:02  

Yeah, it's the Ship of Theseus argument, right? Like if you, right? Oh, it's nice, because the game is modular? Well, how many times? Can you replace a modular piece before you're really effectively doing something different?


Amelia Antrim  33:13  

Right, which, you know, is the thing that I feel like we, we really are going to have to pick apart here when we look at the fact that we did not really touch the main book very much. Wish it you know, as part of our next question, how do you feel like using supplements for character creation? Rather than just using the player's handbook kind of stacks up? How did that feel to us, like, all kinds of unofficial stuff versus the real thing?


Aram Vartian  33:44  

I like it. I like using different things. Again, it allows you to find this character and hone it in the only bar where it's a little tricky, isn't it? Make the world work like because artificer? If you're the only artificer because you're a genius, and you figured it out? Fine, that world works if there are other artificers now we have to discuss how everything's different and how there's a maglev train and everything like you have to like, like the the existence of Ryan's character, it changes a world in some way unless it's like a portal opens and from from drive through, right that's the only way to otherwise you have to radically


Dylan Malenfant  34:24  

change the world. You have teleport spells and plane shifts and have a portal opens and Ryan's character drives out it changes the game but later because they have early levels Yeah, sure. We can brush off that oh, he's the only one but now when I hit you know whatever 17th level wizard and I teleport to the elemental plane of broom broom


Amelia Antrim  34:48  

Yeah, and then you gotta fight that you choose.


Aram Vartian  34:50  

Yeah, that's right. Yeah, no, no, that's ya know, the Elemental Plane have to choose a different one and if they ever cross


Ryan Boelter  34:55  

God, rooms main enemy is the tutu Yeah, and So they have to exist in the same room, right?


Aram Vartian  35:02  

There's the landing, there's the land of neutral flip flops, like there's lots of places we can go here.


Dylan Malenfant  35:08  

And this is sort of the thing with looking at supplements is you have to be a little selective. Because sometimes that stick settlement comes along with a lot of fluff implications. And depending on like, like Ryan mentioned, the tutus are a legitimate thing that in that book exists, and are the mortal enemies of the broom broom. So if you integrate a firm from directly from the book, God, I hate every sentence that's coming out of my mouth, you have immediately implicitly included to choose in your world. But you have to have a longer conversation.


Amelia Antrim  35:41  

To pull just this section and put it on tick tock.


Aram Vartian  35:45  

Hear me out. You've introduced Vermes, the your new room from Powell, no one quite understands it. But we've hit we've accepted it. We've accepted our new from people, and they've told us the stories of the trains. And then one night, at your campsite, in the distance, you hear a horn, you hear that train? Well, that we've got that soft, comforting, mournful sound, but it's a threat. And it's getting louder. That would be


Unknown Speaker  36:15  



Dylan Malenfant  36:16  

exactly what we're talking about, right? Like you now have to change your world to account for the fact that certain decisions have gotten made. And it's a dangerous thing to do as the DM because now, we're I running this game. And I came in, honestly, it's the mistake I made, I figured, okay, I can at least provide an anchor character and build something relatively normal, fairly plain. And everyone went wild in orthogonal directions to the point where the character that stands out the most the character that doesn't work in the party, is the normal one cleric. Right? Right. You have fundamentally shifted the world in so many different directions. Yeah, we're I trying to run this. I have no idea what I'm doing.


Aram Vartian  37:00  

But you're the audience. And now yeah, you know, you if this is a live stream, right? Or if this is a podcast, you are the audience in your the connection in all the craziness, you've got to play the straight man or the straight work.


Dylan Malenfant  37:11  

Sure. So what I'm saying is that if the DM didn't know what we were going to pick ahead of time, right? We now have to break for like a month so that I can probably write a campaign because I had no idea that this was gonna happen. Yeah. Yeah.


Amelia Antrim  37:25  

Right. And so like, that's part of the, I should say, mistake, we did not make a mistake, I know exactly what we're doing. But we're going to run a game where you allow players to use supplements to pick character types, you need to say, Yeah, within these confines, from these one or two books, you know, of this class type, or whatever.


Dylan Malenfant  37:50  

Or like, even just the, this is the story, I'm looking to tell, like, you can pick whatever, from any book, find something that fits. Yeah, but it has to be able to like, which also creates one of the more unfortunate power dynamics in a game where you would look at something and you're like, huh, that doesn't fit the story. I'm trying to tell, can you go back to the drawing board? I had an entire like, it turns it nearly turned into an argument with a player where I was trying to run what I told up front was going to be a standard issue sword and board like, very, like regular fantasy. This was shortly after fifth edition came out and the class that he latched on to was the Great Old One Warlock, right? Which means now implicitly, my world has to include kazoo Lu, right, basically, and I'm left going like I because I know this is a sort of player who's going to want to integrate the patron into their story which means that now that has to feature heavily which means whatever I was running has to be compatible, you know, that sort of problems and then trying to tell it actually we brought this up in the last episode trying to tell a player sorry this thing the core books that you were allowed to do no you don't yeah, you're never winning that fight. Right? Oh,


Aram Vartian  39:11  

oh, like with Ryan, you've got the whole Centaur issue like we can't go to a dungeon now.


Dylan Malenfant  39:16  

Yes, the stairs. Exactly.


Ryan Boelter  39:19  

Right. I take up the whole hallway. Right You know, I'm basically the the slightly shorter you know, gelatinous cube. Yeah. And I can't go around corners


Dylan Malenfant  39:29  

and tavern except for the broom broom who is outside next to the horses because


Amelia Antrim  39:35  

the doors headlights why the window you all meet


Aram Vartian  39:38  

at a drive thru?


Amelia Antrim  39:40  

Yep. Yep.


Ryan Boelter  39:42  

I mean, that's the thing though, right? Because like, you know, centers aren't like, just Player's Handbook. By itself. You can't just pull out a centaur. It's a player character. But I've seen it work in APs and whatnot. And the thing about it is is its own ingrained in us that we are playing humanoids that well unless it's mentioned you forget about it, and I'd be willing to bet like 90% of the players that are playing centaurs are playing them like humanoids. Like they're walking up and down stairs.


Aram Vartian  40:17  

They're climbing rope. BS. Yeah, absolutely


Dylan Malenfant  40:19  

a lot of stuff. You


Aram Vartian  40:20  

care climbing ropes and other things. Yeah, absolutely. There's


Dylan Malenfant  40:23  

a lot that you can sort of hand wave and like not acknowledge. But the more blatant it gets, right? Like, yeah, you can climb a rope. You can imagine a centaur climbing a flight of stairs and like maybe it's a winding staircase. And you're there's a certain point where if you think about it hard enough, you're like, how could you pivot like, this is the sort of staircase I couldn't get a couch up, right, and your butt is six feet away from your face. First of all,


Aram Vartian  40:50  

in a world of centers, there be a lot more ramps should be a lot more RAM. So let's so maybe,


Amelia Antrim  40:55  

but still can just go ahead and assume that the world of d&d is slightly more accessible.


Dylan Malenfant  41:00  

Yeah. But that's the thing. It's like you. Yes. But you get into those questions. And you start like, yeah, there's a certain point where you've picked deep enough and either we need to alter the world or just accept it, like, just shut up for a bit. Right. But if you go too far away, like I said, the case of the broom broom, right where you're like, No, I can imagine like, if the corner is too tight, like horses are still like, you could bend a little bit you could fit. So you're made of an organic metal.


Aram Vartian  41:30  

Can you learn from bend? Yeah, can you like bend at the waist?


Dylan Malenfant  41:35  

Wheels? What if it's really muddy?


Ryan Boelter  41:37  

I mean, I do have facial expressions on my grill. So yeah,


Aram Vartian  41:41  

okay, wait, I'm picturing, you know, the Disney characters from cars.


Ryan Boelter  41:48  

Yeah, if effectively, except for my eyes are the headlights and not the windshield,


Aram Vartian  41:52  

right? Which is frankly, correct. The right way to do it


Ryan Boelter  41:57  

does. And my eyes can light up like headlights, so it's fine. Yeah, yeah. But yeah. It's this whole, like, we've got all these supplements that we just kind of mashed together. We're just like, let's see what happens. And, and I personally loved it. And I love wacky, like, this is not a serious campaign, no matter how great it is, no matter how straight and serious the story is, it's not serious when you think about it even a little bit,


Dylan Malenfant  42:26  

right. And race is another thing. So you play


Aram Vartian  42:28  

your character. You play your character until and you play. It's super serious among us. That's how it works.


Dylan Malenfant  42:33  

But this is a thing that doesn't get talked about that much. That is important. This isn't a game that I enjoy. Like, there's a certain point where you've taken it so like balls to the wall ridiculous.


Amelia Antrim  42:46  

Yeah, I know. not have any fun with this.


Unknown Speaker  42:51  

Iron over here, like, Yeah,


Unknown Speaker  42:54  

I'm super psyched for the one shot.


Dylan Malenfant  42:55  

And there's nothing wrong with that. Right? There's nothing wrong with enjoying it. I'm just saying like, there's a certain point where if those expectations aren't properly calibrated, and we weren't planning on running this game, it becomes a very, very awkward situation where I get to this point, and I'm like, do I do I just kind of power my way through it. But there's going to be a certain point where I'm just not having fun, and I will probably drag the game back or do I have to somehow find a way to tell my friends like, Hey, listen, I love you guys. You're wonderful.


Amelia Antrim  43:26  

I hope you have fun.


Dylan Malenfant  43:29  

I'm just not doing this for me.


Amelia Antrim  43:31  

I have a lot of times about d&d though. When friends told me about their d&d, because I don't like wacky games. I don't that's not my play style is not wacky and weird and like crazy, you know, it's like, like, somebody was telling me about their game where they're like, their character is like in a Baby Bjorn being carried around by giant skeleton or something. And I'm like, that doesn't sound fun to me. That just sounds like that doesn't. Yeah, sounds dumb, too far. It's too much. It's too much.


Aram Vartian  44:00  

It's an interesting concept walking around, right? But then you go, you go into town, and you're like, No, carry me into the end. I'm like, No, see, people don't like this. Like, I see you want to do this. But you have to accept that there's a reality. And then people are gonna react differently than you. You can't just walk onto a set every time you want to expect the world just to be a set. Like if we're gonna buy in, you've got to buy in. If you can figure out a way to make this wacky thing actually work in this world. Great. Do the extra work, but don't just dump it on us and expect us to buy into your bad premise. Yeah,


Dylan Malenfant  44:33  

yeah. No, that's, that's sort of what I'm trying to get at is like, if you can't set those, those baselines, then you wind up with a nonsense premise. Yeah, there's another thing that I just want to bring up real quick. We accidentally made a garbage d&d game that I have no interest in playing, right. We can restructure Ryan's character slightly. And this is a Shadowrun game that I would play. Right because the thing We accidentally built was a beefy caster, a face, a hacker and the wheel man. Yeah, you make it the sort of thing where you can just do like a mental connection to the car or you jack into it or whatever. And it's effectively the same sort of concept. Right? So, and this is, again, one of the walls you hit up against.


Amelia Antrim  45:23  

So it's definitely like in how you skin it and like what you're doing. And then the question is,


Dylan Malenfant  45:28  

is it the end what your world is? And that's the


Unknown Speaker  45:32  

shadow run?


Ryan Boelter  45:33  

No, it's not shattering.


Dylan Malenfant  45:35  

It's a garbage d&d game, because it doesn't make sense. And you have to jump through all these hoops. And by the time you've put it into the right brackets, the right setting to make it work. You've stopped playing d&d, and you need to change the system, because d&d doesn't account for the things we're going to want to do in a game that has these characters in a


Aram Vartian  45:57  

chatroom, and it gives you some leeway. We were talking with Carlos and the quote came up like two people, the average person will only ask why twice? If you give them a scenario, they'll only ask why twice. If the first thing is it. Shadowrun there might not be a second quarter


Dylan Malenfant  46:13  

cover. Most of that rule expects reasonable answers to each ask like, what's Ryan playing? Oh, he's playing a sapient car. Wait. So did somebody invent cars? No. Cars are just creatures with two there's two. There's like a city then. Like do they come at eggs? Like no, no, there's a factory. Hold on. So are these constructs? Like,


Unknown Speaker  46:36  

had been? Shadow run?


Aram Vartian  46:38  

You would have gotten Oh,


Dylan Malenfant  46:39  

like, okay, sorry. He's not playing a sapient current sapien car, he's playing a hacker who is jacked into a car and just controlling it from a post. Okay, yeah. That's shadow run.


Aram Vartian  46:54  

Yeah, that's just, oh, you're just playing basic shadow run?


Amelia Antrim  46:59  

Yeah, I'm pretty sure that in our shadow run episodes. Didn't make me I'll just make Jesus. Yep. Yeah.


Ryan Boelter  47:05  

Literal Jesus, literally, somebody that was pretending that they did Jesus.


Unknown Speaker  47:12  

Yeah. Sounds right.


Unknown Speaker  47:13  

So it sounds very on brand.


Amelia Antrim  47:15  

Yeah. Yeah. And then there was a teacup pig. Somebody made a teacup pig. Amazing. Yeah, I mean, I think the answer like, oh, it's shadow run. Just totally. I have so many fewer questions covered. Yeah. About the things that we did. If you had said we did this in Shadowrun. Yeah, yep. And because all of the things that we made would have been in the core book.


Dylan Malenfant  47:36  



Amelia Antrim  47:39  

Yeah, I agree. I think so much of whether you do or don't use supplements, what parts of supplements you use, how you use them, all of that kind of stuff really has to be a conversation that happens ahead of time. And it feels like so much work of a d&d game needs to be front loaded for it to work at all.


Dylan Malenfant  47:58  

It's got to be judicious choices. Yes, supplements are amazing. And they expand what the game can do. But if you expand in too many directions at once, it's nonsense.


Amelia Antrim  48:09  

And there's so much cool stuff out there that people have made that I want to be able to touch but like, yeah, yeah, yeah.


Ryan Boelter  48:18  

Well, it's interesting, because I was I was going into this thinking we might throw out this first, this next question, because it is like we talked about d&d, we talked about how the process character creation, you know, reinforces the feel of playing.


Amelia Antrim  48:34  

Yeah, it's a very combat heavy, I think was the dance we came to last time, right.


Ryan Boelter  48:39  

But but in this scenario, I have a very good idea of how this particular group of people would play and it would be wacky,


Amelia Antrim  48:50  

right? Yeah, we have we have definitely set a tone if nothing else.


Dylan Malenfant  48:54  

Oh, absolutely. So that being said, we set a tone that is nearly incompatible with the game itself. Yes. Right. Like d&d is a combat simulator. wackiness comes in through description and through fluff, like we've done something. And Amelia, I think you brought this up in the last episode. Like there's a certain possibly the first episode doesn't really matter. But there's a certain point where like, if you're doing it entirely outside of the rules of the game, are you playing the right game for what you're trying to do?


Amelia Antrim  49:25  

Right? Yeah. Which is my has always been my big thing with people who are like, Oh, just reskin it and five E and it's like, but there's really again, it doesn't better, you know, like it doesn't, the mechanics that you're using should reinforce the feel of what you're trying to do. Right mechanics should help tell the story. They shouldn't be just like, a thing that you do. And then also we tell a story, which is what seems to happen in a lot of games where people are like, I love d&d, we're telling this great story, and it's like, no, you're rolling dice and doing combat and also the Yeah, writing some fanfiction like you're not, you're not doing both.


Aram Vartian  50:03  

We are telling a really good story in between the three hour slog it takes to do every room of combat. We're telling a fun little story in the hallway.


Amelia Antrim  50:14  

Right, right. No, I think that we have set an expectation for what the tone of this game is going to be. Honestly, I think Brian was really the one that set that expectation because, yeah, right. When I look at my character, like, Yes, I picked this like digital God, and I picked you know, this, like, sorcerer, or whatever. But those none of those choices were overly like wacky. They are distinct. And you know, not necessarily like basic d&d.


Dylan Malenfant  50:43  

It's a tech level, but it doesn't change a tone much, right.


Amelia Antrim  50:47  

Like most of the decisions I made were like, toward the darker, more evil kind of thing, which is what I do. Ryan's character is the one that like, flat out was like, I'm a car, honestly, here we are,


Dylan Malenfant  50:59  

I guess if there wasn't


Ryan Boelter  51:00  

a car, it would have been a magical girl, and then we would have been much closer


Dylan Malenfant  51:05  

it would have been hold. And that would have actually become a lot more interesting. Because then what you have is a bunch of different varieties of Chosen One. Yeah. Oh, yeah. And that was a little bit like, streamlined in the narrative, you know? Yeah, that would have


Amelia Antrim  51:22  

been an interesting like, council was chosen one's kind of like,


Dylan Malenfant  51:26  

you've got the Magical Girl, you've got the, like, weird digital consciousness from the distant future. You've got the one that was just chosen by a regular God in a fantasy world, and the sax guy, yep. Which someone


Aram Vartian  51:43  

always has to wander in.


Dylan Malenfant  51:45  

But that's the thing is, you have to wander in, but then the story becomes like, if everyone else is the chosen one, and somehow you've accidentally wound up in the party, are you we just not realize how or recognize. And that becomes a really interesting art.


Aram Vartian  52:00  

But as long as we're gonna play a full campaign, we got like six years to figure it out.


Amelia Antrim  52:04  

The question is, like, are you maybe a savant of some kind, that you're maybe my


Aram Vartian  52:10  

guides, just subtle, maybe music is just this far more subtle religion that eventually guides you down a path and we learn to, and we learn about it in a little different way. Later on for a while. I'm just the guy tagging along probably the comic relief, even though there's a car. And then later on, there's an anchor point, I think is great. If you give like, you want to bring your DM every single thing about your backstory, here's the entire roadmap to like, you know, pull it all the emotional things. Here it is, give it to him great DMS. Love that. But if you're like, here's a bit of a nebulous cloud, feel free to fill that in later. That's a nice gift to hand over and it'll pay huge dividends. That's


Amelia Antrim  52:51  

much more how I prefer to play. Yeah, it's like, here are a couple of hooks, like, here's some strings, you can pull on some directions I would like to go helped me figure out what happens. Don't


Dylan Malenfant  53:03  

build an orphan. Don't kill the parents. It's, you know, I built a half health and eventually, you know, dad started aging, it became weird and uncomfortable. And moms who are just full left, but she's an elf. So she's definitely still alive somewhere and also still young enough that she is also adventuring. Right. Like, I don't know what happened.


Amelia Antrim  53:27  

Maybe she had a family there in Canada? I don't know.


Dylan Malenfant  53:33  

We do have a lot else in candidates for that.


Amelia Antrim  53:38  

No, I think it's I, I also think that this is an interesting sort of exercise in what happens when one person makes a choice. Yeah, that changes everything. Because I've definitely had that in games to where it's like, we're all roughly on the same page, and then some person does something, whether it's a big or a small character choice. In Ryan's case, it was kind of a big, obvious choice. Yeah. But sometimes it is somebody's taking that one sort of, like, you know, I was chosen by my God to do this. And then the whole story becomes about that, or they change the tone of the whole game. And it's a thing that, you know, sometimes you can account for in a session zero, but sometimes sort of just happened. And I as a player, I've definitely been in games where I've been frustrated by that, where somebody like makes a decision or is like, I'm gonna do a thing. And it's like, Okay, now it's the safe show, because like they have sort of hijacked the story. Yes, it's all about them. And like, we're all just along for this ride.


Aram Vartian  54:37  

There's also ways to do it for good though. Like, I know what you mean. Like, he like there's way to like, put the spotlight on you. And like, it's all about me. That's not the way to direct like, if you want a story thing, let's say you like okay, I want to make sure at this new table, my line and valence I don't want slavery in this game. I don't want that at all, and how I'm going to reinforce that as I'm playing in work. And now Oh, every time we walk into a town like I said, no lines of hills, no slavery, no racism. So now every time I walk into a town you guys for me eat, you know, equally so the world has to accommodate that you have to think about the fact that this is different from a typical d&d world. And we are actively now engaging with that, it's it's a nice way to kind of reinforce that I'm not the center point. But I have with but but my character choice has reinforced an element about the world.


Amelia Antrim  55:30  

Normally, we talk about character sheets for this game. Well, for any game that we look at, and one of the things we noticed with d&d, when we first looked at it, too, is that you know, all of these boxes are like, how do you hurt the thing, right. But I want to talk about with what we've made, banned with all of these various supplements, and even just like in general experience for you, do you think that there are things that should be included on a character sheet that


Dylan Malenfant  55:58  

aren't? Take a look at a standard d&d character sheet and look at how much room there is for the background? Yeah, harped on this a little bit in part one, but like, the backgrounds make an attempt at giving you non-combat options on how to interact with sort of social problems. Again, a lot of the core book ones are kind of garbagey, in that they're stuff like, oh, you need a place to stay. You're an acolyte, you can stay at the church. Problem solved. We just short circuited the existence of a problem rather than giving you a way to engage with it. But like the the intention is there.


Amelia Antrim  56:33  

Yeah, it's the only real like personality bits they


Dylan Malenfant  56:35  

get. And there is a weird little box, that's like, three lines, and does not provide the space to enter this in which like, explicitly tells you how valuable it is. It's the same for feats. Despite the fact that again, mechanically, feats are one of the most interesting ways to interact with the game. Yeah. You don't have the ability to write them on your character sheet. The game is very much pushing you towards all of those standard buttons of interaction. Here are your skills. Here's the damage of your weapon here your ability score bonuses and your safes. And the sheet is over. Nothing.


Amelia Antrim  57:13  

How much gold you have. Yep. So


Aram Vartian  57:16  

you know, it's interesting, because I think a lot of problems with d&d early if you really want like a lot of problems with d&d things that, you know, if you took it, they just change the name of race, like, Okay, what's that called races anymore? Or they're trying to get it out there. Now, species didn't solve anything, because it's still species first, right? That's the first thing, change it the background should be first make the background, the first thing you pick, make it the most powerful thing you pick, put all the dots and all the things in there, and just separate that out from species. And if the background becomes the driving factor, then you're like, Okay, this is how I was raised. These are the experiences I had. No, this is the thing I am. Yeah,


Amelia Antrim  57:59  

yeah, we talked about that. With that, with the ancestry and culture book that had come out last year. You know, that looks at like, Okay, how was I raised? Where was I raised? You know, like, these things determine more about me than the fact that I am white, or, you know, the fact that I am an elf? What kind of alpha where was i and l was a raised by elves or was raised by humans, like those will tell you a lot more about you and your traits and the things that you've learned then just like elf, okay? Because I have more charisma, like know what and I think that d&d could do a lot more with that. That


Ryan Boelter  58:45  

is an interesting point though, if we if we did the background and personality first and just reversed the process like that, that's a huge differences


Amelia Antrim  58:56  

so much look for role playing and so much more of an invitation to roleplay because that's the thing is like what the backgrounds they're in there and you can use them and you can use them for roleplay but it's very much tacked on at the end after I've picked all of the other things I've done all of the character building Yeah, it feels like a


Aram Vartian  59:15  

difference between saying like I am an elf How would an elf be this and saying that this is who I am? How does that change now slightly being an elf? How does being an elf now flavor? Who I Am? What does that add to who I am NOT? NOT? How does that define


Dylan Malenfant  59:32  

who I am? It's part of what I like about sort of more point by systems where like, instead of having levels and character progression, you just sort of buy into your abilities individually. Yeah. Because like, the moment you say, Oh, I'm an elven mage. Well, everybody knows for that, as everybody knows what one to 20 is, and like, you have to start coming up with the ways that you're twisting that to make that unique and your own. But if I were to say like, no, no, my character is that I'm a baker. And I worked like, I was part of a little military camp. So I went through basic, I can fight, but then I was chosen by a god to go out on this higher purpose. I could have all the exact same abilities, but the fact that I couldn't just say, half our cleric.


Ryan Boelter  1:00:17  

Yeah, and that's a million times more interesting, starting with, I was a baker,


Amelia Antrim  1:00:23  

and gives you so much more to work with. And again, like for all of those people that you know, talk about other really great role playing opportunities you had in your d&d game. That's what you're playing with. And so for all of those people that want a role play heavy game, it brings that to the front and says, okay, like, now, how does this affect my story, rather than like, I have swords, and also a family, I guess.


Ryan Boelter  1:00:45  

Yeah. And honestly, if you if you put the background first and you want it to be you still super important, quote, unquote, for the people that are just there for the stats, right, just there for the combat abilities and stuff, throw that into the background as well, like, Oh, you were a fisherman. So so that means that you've got you know, extra dexterity and extra, you know, this because of, you know, your your ability to work on boats, and blah, blah, blah,


Dylan Malenfant  1:01:13  

you know, or even just like, pick your background first. Okay, now pick your ability scores, same rules as normal, you get a plus two and a plus one. Tell me why those are different because of what you did. If you make, you know, oh, I worked in construction. So I have a plus two strength because I'm used to, you know, having to lug bricks around and like, right, swinging a hammer, all that fun stuff. And my secondary stat is intelligence, because I was the one who was in charge of just keeping track of equipment and making sure everything was in order.


Amelia Antrim  1:01:48  

You know? Yeah. Yeah. Tell me why you have, like, not just like, Oh, I get plus one. That's because I'm a human like, great. I have.


Dylan Malenfant  1:01:57  

It's a major improvement. Don't get me wrong, that d&d has dissociated those bonuses from race, at least logical thing. But now they are devoid of meaning to just pad your SATs and skew it towards what you wanted to build.


Amelia Antrim  1:02:12  

Now, it's like, oh, we don't really know what else to do with them. And we do need a plus one somewhere, otherwise, the math doesn't work. So which here I guess? No,


Unknown Speaker  1:02:21  

you don't just put factor them into the standard array? Yep.


Amelia Antrim  1:02:25  

No, we can't change. We can't change this. What are you talking about?


Dylan Malenfant  1:02:27  

We can move the numbers up a little bit. Add a couple more points on point by themselves.


Ryan Boelter  1:02:33  

What are you talking about also


Dylan Malenfant  1:02:35  

stop this stop putting in scores from three to 18. They're useless. Give it Give it to me on a scale of minus five to five, there is the minus eight going up. If you got


Ryan Boelter  1:02:47  

infuriating, then I leveled up, I get a plus one to my stat Hooray, dies, does nothing literally nothing. Not until I level up four more times. And I get another plus one to that stat. Oh, yeah,


Dylan Malenfant  1:03:01  

this has come up like three times in different spaces. d&d, one likes to bring back healing surges, because that's what they did with hit dice. And then they forgot that that's what they did with hit dice. Having that be like, Oh, no, no, you have a healing resource that you can spend. So now I'm level eight, I have eight hit dice, and this potion doesn't cause me to magically heal. It accelerates my natural healing so that on the battlefield, I chug this and I regain. But it takes away and now I don't get to rest as much any of that stuff. Those are great. And now it's a resource that can be managed and can be worked with. And that's how you make blood magic really work in d&d? Is it for now instead of my hit points, my healing is the thing you're spending out of that can be way more interesting. That's really cool. It's


Amelia Antrim  1:03:49  

a big problem with a lot of things. In d&d, though, they're like, we changed this. So you could do this, but we forgot that we did it. Like they just like, they're like, oh, we'll change things over here. And then nobody bothered to like connect the dots. And remember that it also is going to affect this thing over here. So


Aram Vartian  1:04:02  

complex at this. At this point. It's it's bound to happen. Yeah, I don't care how many people they add on it. I don't care how well they have it mapped out like it's too complex. They're going also there's a power creep. that's been happening concern, and that throws everything out of balance. It's I don't I don't think it's possible. Yeah, it's something this complex to keep. Yeah,


Amelia Antrim  1:04:22  

not unless you again, like would just start with a new addition, you'd have to, which is, you know, I assume why they keep making new additions.


Ryan Boelter  1:04:29  

I mean, at least a slight riff


Aram Vartian  1:04:31  

say that, but that it's harder now. It's too because it's so complex, it's harder for them if they were to switch it over to 60. Now, because everything with d&d Beyond with role 20 With everything that they are tied to have contracts with, it's going to be a lot harder. I think they're going to, I think, a slow rollout to 5.5 and then maybe 2040 See No, sorry, two, maybe two, maybe 2030 we'd see a 60. But I think it's like that far down.


Dylan Malenfant  1:05:07  

I think that I think that's fair. I can say that. Yeah. Yeah.


Ryan Boelter  1:05:11  

So what, what do we think is one of the biggest flaws of character creation? Using all of these supplements? I'm pretty sure we know the answer from dealing at least. And what what is one of the best parts?


Dylan Malenfant  1:05:24  

Or, um, you do this because I'm too obvious. Okay. So


Aram Vartian  1:05:27  

the fun part is the good part is that by doing these long involved, character builds, and really kind of like, exploring, like, what does this mean? How does how does this affect the world, we have done a lot of the world building at the table already, we have several different worlds, in fact, for this group to work with. And that is a really fun character exercise that a helps figure out how we're going to play the game, and helps us figure out how we're going to react to each other and how we're going to play our own characters. The problem is, it takes for ever stakes for ever. And if you don't have all the booklets and it's harder for you and me, and it's expensive as hell, there are a lot of problems with the with the DND. Assistant, but it's basically time and money are gonna be the two big ones for me.


Dylan Malenfant  1:06:19  

Yeah, I think specifically with the supplements. And Ryan, let me know if you call this one biggest flaw is that around this right? There's a lot of fun. And hold on, because sometimes he says something, or we're gonna get a ROM is right, it was a lot of fun to sit down and do all these world building exercises. But that asymmetric system that we talked about, means that we sat down, we had a lot of fun as players talking through different ways we can make this world work different vague sort of senses of the world in which this party could exist. And now player five, who obviously in this podcast doesn't exist, has to go home, take all those suggestions, synthesize a coherent world in which a plot still happens, because this is the thing. When we switched it to everyone as a chosen one. And Ryan played a magical girl. We immediately had a narrative plot, right? Oh, right, the party implied a story. Just trying to make all of these characters exist in the same place is arduous, trying to then tell a story that occurs using all of them. Now that they're all here, borderline impossible. So like, yeah, it's a lot of fun to do. And having all of these options and doing the character building exercise is great. But it sucks so much for the DM to then have to go and make something of it. Especially given that, again, the way d&d lays out its workload, it is one person who now has to turn this into a story instead of a pile of kind of funny stuff we said.


Amelia Antrim  1:08:01  

Right, right. Yeah, I mean, this is one of those few times where we're coming away from the show. And I'm like, I'm glad I don't have to play this game. Like, I'm glad that this isn't a thing that I have to do. Normally, we walk away, and I'm like, Oh, I wish I could do something with these characters. That would be really fun. And this one, I'm like, burn them all. Burn it to the ground. Like it was fun for what it was. But you're right. Like I just, I can't see a game where this works coherently. And it's fun for everybody. And everybody gets like equal screentime too, because I just I just really feel Ryan love you though. I do you have driven this off the rails? With that one choice is that like, no matter what the rest of us do, everything is a slave to that one decision that you've made.


Ryan Boelter  1:08:51  

And to be fair, that was exactly my intent going into it.


Dylan Malenfant  1:08:54  

Yeah, yeah. No, no, you you knew you're doing and that's fine. Like I intended


Amelia Antrim  1:08:59  

to we knew that there wouldn't be consequences. Yeah, exactly.


Aram Vartian  1:09:04  

Giant or troll this would have been less intrusive than living car.


Ryan Boelter  1:09:08  

Yeah, exactly. And that was kind of my whole point is like, if if you are the player that takes that really out there supplement and picks the most like unorthodox character from it. You're gonna you're gonna have this sort of experience. Yeah, but I wanted to showcase that.


Amelia Antrim  1:09:32  

Here's a question though, is it it's gonna


Dylan Malenfant  1:09:34  



Unknown Speaker  1:09:36  

Hunter for hunters that


Unknown Speaker  1:09:39  

they're gonna resent you. Yeah.


Amelia Antrim  1:09:40  

200 some choices, right? Lucky that that book had a ton. Right? If we had all gone equally out there because it had things that were like, you know, butts for faces and stuff. Like if we had all chosen to do something like that non d&d Like, would it have helped?


Dylan Malenfant  1:10:05  

No. No, because I think there were certain cases where I think you're close enough to normal. Like, say the Centaur case where you can just tell people like, okay, yeah, the senators gotta go upstairs sometimes it doesn't really make sense the wizards casting fireball, leave me alone. However, replace that sentence. Yeah, it's really hard for the car to drive up a stairwell. But also around this character literally has a butt for a face and communicates through farts. And you haven't actually made it better. You just made everything like, you know what, actually, you're right. Let's talk about why that's true.


Amelia Antrim  1:10:48  



Aram Vartian  1:10:49  

I also want you to know Dylan by assigning dubs the buttface character to me, you have invoked that in the future, there will be a time when I roleplay that now and I want you to know, it's gonna cycle back to right you did it to yourself or your fault.


Dylan Malenfant  1:11:03  

As long as you don't do it in a place where I have to deal with it. I don't give a damn.


Amelia Antrim  1:11:08  

I just know that like, The book also had like, three people. It's gonna have that one. That's all. Yep. Um, you know, like, like, you know, if we all started to be like, similarly sized, or you know, like, like, at what level? Is it? Like, so weird that it just doesn't matter anymore? Or is there not a point?


Aram Vartian  1:11:27  

I think we'd all have to be cars. Like, for this one? I think we're gonna look at cars. Yeah. You have to kind of be in car world. And then it says car world is? Road, that's fine. That's fine to train. But does it even matter? At that point, once we've just replaced everyone, and now we're all cars and boats and trains? Doesn't even matter? Or have we just basically rewritten the world except everyone's cars and boats and trains, but right works the same,


Amelia Antrim  1:11:55  

but now it's normal, because we're all right. Now it's like if what level is it? Like this is okay, this is okay. This is weird, right? This is okay. Again,


Dylan Malenfant  1:12:06  

I'm gonna talk in math terms. Okay, God, it's about it's a vector space. It's about direction, right? You can make it as weird as you want in one direction, right? We are called cars, and we're all moving on the same path. And it is so far away from the baseline, but everything is related to each other. The moment someone moves orthogonal to that you're moving at a 90 degree path on weird. Like, say one person builds a car that is supposed to be able to exist in a fantasy world and another person has decided also, this fantasy world not only has computers, but has sapien computers that are saving computer viruses that are also wizards. And one guy's like, also, it's an elephant.


Amelia Antrim  1:12:48  

This elephant can


Dylan Malenfant  1:12:49  

hold on. Now you have to reconcile all these things. Like also I bake bread. Also. Yeah. Honestly, I'm kind of the worst of it. Because like I said, these are all weird in orthogonal directions. But I'm anchoring us to that zero point of no displacement from normal. Yeah, I'm forcing a comparison to what things air quotes should be.


Ryan Boelter  1:13:12  

Right. Right. And your character is gonna toss me like baked alcoholic goods so I can eat them through my grill.


Dylan Malenfant  1:13:18  

Yeah, that's everything is terrible. Right, so like, you can go as weird as you want, as long as everybody stays close to weird, exactly. The more you go in different directions, the more you have to make all of these things true at the same time. And once they're all true at the same time. They have to cope they have to be able to be right


Amelia Antrim  1:13:42  

no I fully agree with that. I just think that's like a an interesting like sort of thought exercise to have of like, where do these weird things fit in? Because yeah, they can be like because we could all play you know, the the world of cars if we wanted to, which we definitely don't you know, and it's off planes. But this isn't what we were doing. Yeah, like we weren't all being


Dylan Malenfant  1:14:10  

card came in for d&d, even though


Aram Vartian  1:14:12  

even though World Of course sounds like a lot of fun, and we all would have fun playing it and we do want to play. We don't We didn't play motorcars today.


Amelia Antrim  1:14:22  

I feel like Dylan and I are like playing one kind of game and then like, you two are like maybe playing what's


Aram Vartian  1:14:27  

the grumpiest car


Dylan Malenfant  1:14:28  

I legitimately like I shut up. All right. Honestly, our characters would work reasonably well together. You and me, Amelia because I built a cleric that also took like the Battlemaster feet so you can like I build someone who could rush in and tank a fight and do healing from the middle of combat. Yeah. But then also you have the Holy angle and the grounded to like meatspace Baker element. And then you have a sorcerer who is at their core evil like there's a lot of places where that Oh, overlaps and you can tell a story that invokes both those people. And then we have a spy with us. Let's not even talk about the fact that they're a car. We also have James Bond in the party. Yeah. How did that how does that story come into this? Yeah, it doesn't.


Ryan Boelter  1:15:16  

It doesn't mix. Right. Right. Interesting. Like, and this is, this is kind of a fault of d&d itself, I believe is when you create, and this is almost been kinda historically, the way it's been done is create your characters. We'll get together as a group, and then we'll figure out how it works together. Or we'll throw our characters at the DM and the DM will


Amelia Antrim  1:15:42  

have fun. Yeah.


Ryan Boelter  1:15:45  

And then nobody in the group knows what any other character is in the group. And we have to pretend to be best friends when we started up,


Amelia Antrim  1:15:51  

and we meet in a tavern and we all get along fine when I say again, as a woman, I am not leaving a tavern with some weirdo with a sword. Yeah, like I'm not doing because I don't know why every d&d game.


Dylan Malenfant  1:16:05  

The weirdo with a sword is a hot lady.


Amelia Antrim  1:16:09  

Okay, well. That's right. All right, fine.


Dylan Malenfant  1:16:14  

But no, this is a ramen. I actually we're talking about this. We had another recording yesterday and this came up but these characters were not characters we built together. We built these characters sitting next to correct yes.


Amelia Antrim  1:16:27  

Which is totally different.


Dylan Malenfant  1:16:28  

Yeah, absolutely could have like, in any situation where we intended to play the game. Like I roll my eyes because Character Creation Cast, you're making a goofy choice, but at a table. Ryan goes, Oh, I'm gonna play have room for him. And I go, No, you're not gonna like it? Can we? Can we at least grounded a little bit more? Because how are we going to build any story that incorporates the sapient car, please.


Amelia Antrim  1:16:52  

And the thing is, like in almost any other series that we have made, we've had those kinds of conversations where somebody says, I'm going to do this and you say, Oh, I was actually thinking this direction and we kind of work together on it and like this one we very purposefully we're like nope, free for all and it turned out bad. Do your listeners This is why you don't do this. It turned out real bad.


Ryan Boelter  1:17:15  

Yeah, it was fun. It was fun. It's now playable. Correct. In fact,


Dylan Malenfant  1:17:19  

I think the next question is unanswerable.


Amelia Antrim  1:17:26  

Oh you underestimate us.


Dylan Malenfant  1:17:32  

Let me reword that I don't think there's a good answer to next question. Sure.


Amelia Antrim  1:17:37  

No, absolutely. Absolutely not.


Dylan Malenfant  1:17:40  

I anytime I say can't be done I have a baseline assumption of competency to the result


Amelia Antrim  1:17:46  

should or not the same Dylan let me remind you


Ryan Boelter  1:17:50  

my characters really bad attribute roles.


Dylan Malenfant  1:17:53  

Oh god I forgot you don't even exist it's like


Unknown Speaker  1:17:59  

no, no


Dylan Malenfant  1:18:02  

yes the bright side to this is we're gonna run the car with


Unknown Speaker  1:18:05  

a check engine light on


Dylan Malenfant  1:18:09  

say we did this recording we built these characters. And I was running this game. I would be completely comfortable with it because at the end of session two that car is definitely dead. I'm just not asking you to make a new character.


Amelia Antrim  1:18:23  

Right you have not been invited back for it


Unknown Speaker  1:18:26  

I love and influence there's like one fireball it's like literally dead


Amelia Antrim  1:18:36  

let's do this. Next question, everyone. How does this story play out? Let's let's do our fanfic. Oh, please tell me about this group. How do we get together


Ryan Boelter  1:18:49  

very thankful that my character is not the elephant in the room


Dylan Malenfant  1:18:56  

are you worse than him?


Aram Vartian  1:18:58  

Well, you know what, you know what?


Amelia Antrim  1:19:01  

He is worse because he's like nice and you like like Iran doesn't even try and like Ryan is likable like you want to like you want to like it and then there's a ROM that's just like


Aram Vartian  1:19:14  

so delicious so flummoxed because I don't try and yet all of the guests even his childhood friend


Aram Vartian  1:19:24  

all turn on you


Unknown Speaker  1:19:29  

make no effort


Unknown Speaker  1:19:31  

Oh, amazing.


Amelia Antrim  1:19:34  

That's what makes it worse though. Is that like you don't even try


Unknown Speaker  1:19:37  

this it's like if I was lymphoid just like walking under like a six foot bar just stride right through.


Dylan Malenfant  1:19:43  

Yeah. Anyway, so But why do we make this way I got a question becomes Hold on. Sorry, go once. My my guess for how we make this work is we pick who isn't present. Because it could didn't show up this week. Because if I'm not There, the game starts to make a little bit more sense in a given direction. Right You now have a musician, the weird computer lady and like we've gone full weird. we omit Amelia, we get a new kind of weird that can get a little bit more tethered to reality because the baker and the musician in their weird mystical van. Yeah, still weird but like a more grounded weird and you can tell sort of more episodic stories like that. I think God, I legitimately think if we take a ROM out, I'm still too far out for the whole system to work between the three of us. Like you take out the broom broom, and like I said, the play off between Emilio's character and mine can clearly work because you've got a very direct wholly versus corrupted and then we've got sort of the neutral dude who is just kind of keeping the party operating. Yeah. Yeah,


Amelia Antrim  1:20:54  

we are just all playing very different games. Because like, that's the thing is like, I don't look at my characters being that out there. Like the digital God part is is weird. Yeah. But it's not. It's not weird. Weird. You know what I mean? It's like it's a construct, but like, you could have it be magic instead of computer, you know, fluff.


Aram Vartian  1:21:17  

Here's how we do it. Okay, hang on, I got this. I've got a magical portal opens and blasting through it comes this car. This strange, exotic machine that's never been seen before here comes skidding to a stop almost crashes. over a cliff, the door flings open and a curly haired handsome man comes stumbling out with a fatal wound and dies there on the ground. The magic that has infested this car as it went through the portal splits its intelligent personality from its bodies, there's still a mind lift in there. But there's also this other mind that is now it's separate thing. This broken, confused, scared now to beings comes across the campsite of a simple chef who somehow sees beyond the differences is able to provide a little bit of safety and a little bit of space. But while the digital creature has a voice, this car doesn't. And while they're able to find safety and sick and security as this new family, the car can't speak. And for many days, there's a little bit of sadness in this new group into one day, an elephant comes along with a horn of their own and teach his car how to speak in a new way.


Dylan Malenfant  1:22:50  

Okay, so that's terrible. Here's why.


Amelia Antrim  1:22:55  

flows right past me sentiment, like, let me tell you why you suck.


Dylan Malenfant  1:22:58  

So what you did there, because you told a story that involves off all four of the characters. d&d, that wasn't a d&d game, you assumed immediately just an unexplained existence, you linked Amelia and Ryan's characters, right off the bat. That's fine. I'm fine with that. Then you bring me in, and you've created a party that could then do some kind of weird ventures, but you have no real explanation for what we would do. That is a d&d game in that. And then after you skipped over the d&d game that we have, and with the incomplete party, you use your character to do another story that isn't a d&d game. That completely resolves all of it, at which point the entire party is together. The story is over. And a d&d game still hasn't occurred, or even started introduced how


Aram Vartian  1:23:44  

the characters come together. This is our we meet in a tavern but it's better because it's an actual story that ties us together emotionally and now a d&d game can be get have, we had to do a lot of growth. What are we? Right you so like, what


Amelia Antrim  1:23:59  

is this group cobbled? Together? And like, why are we Why is a computer care about


Aram Vartian  1:24:06  

anything, Amelia? That's the answer.


Dylan Malenfant  1:24:09  

See, this is what I mean. You're just washing over the actual game that you're trying to get to. And like it was the dungeons around works for the nonsense story, right? Like if you accepted this is absurd. We're bringing unrelated just an integrable party members together, and we're just going to play a d&d game now. Yeah, completely fine. But at that point, we've shown up to a beer beer and pretzels game with our own character sheets having spoken and we just sit down to do the dungeon.


Ryan Boelter  1:24:36  

Let me let me lay something down for you. And I can I can turn this from a wacky d&d experience into something completely serious and no, okay.


Dylan Malenfant  1:24:47  

I don't believe you but I'm willing to hear you out was


Ryan Boelter  1:24:50  

how is a an organic, sentient car to a group of normal people in a fantasy world Old that different than a beholder? First of all, okay, they're both weird and totally alien. This session car sure comes from the realm of motorhome according to the book. Right? And comes through a portal. Portals exist different dimensions exist in the d&d world. Okay, so now you've got this room from this this sentient car, who they wouldn't even think of it as a car. They would think of it as


Unknown Speaker  1:25:32  

what? You're right. A creature beholder? Yes.


Ryan Boelter  1:25:36  

It's like a, like a weird sort of look at this really ugly Beholder that can hold people inside of it to travel.


Aram Vartian  1:25:46  

That's what the holder part stands for.


Ryan Boelter  1:25:49  

Exactly. So you've got this multi dimensional like story. Clark kind of coming through here, right? You've got that that potential for tutus to come into play? And like be a frightening monstrosity?


Amelia Antrim  1:26:06  

Why did we not just straight up murder you if it's a d&d game? Oh, d&d player.


Dylan Malenfant  1:26:13  

That's if the DM introduces it, right, because we were talking about another player showing up at the party and describing this. And what you're sort of talking about is the case of this is what my character would do, which is a bad way to play right? allowances for our fellow party. So


Amelia Antrim  1:26:27  

what my person would do I would also murder Ryan, what she's


Unknown Speaker  1:26:30  

saying is that if there was


Aram Vartian  1:26:31  

an immune builder showing up, you're probably going to attack it there. You might not like ask questions. First is what they're saying. What is


Amelia Antrim  1:26:39  

not what my character would do that? would do?


Dylan Malenfant  1:26:44  

It? Yes. If I was in carry, I would try to sit not carry which was Karwan. Christine? Yeah, yeah. Sorry. It was the other one where a lady's name was a standard for all


Ryan Boelter  1:26:54  

right. Could it mean it takes say, beholders weren't a thing in the d&d world and a century and Beholder pops into existence? And is like, Hey, I don't want to I don't want to do harm to all of you. I just want to exist and do my thing. And, and like, maybe get back to my home world. You know, that's that's, that's interesting. Is it is story arc.


Dylan Malenfant  1:27:23  

I agree with you. Run the same page so far. Yeah. Amelia, Satan's Mac, effectively. Yeah. So that's what sort of weird orthogonal direction right element comes in is like, you're right. Any given weird thing in this campaign? Yeah. Good work. It's making all the weird things.


Ryan Boelter  1:27:45  

So now, a roms character and Dylan's character both your characters are like the quote unquote, normal to a d&d existence type characters. So then now we have to explain Emilio's character as if the world can hold that sort of construct, right. Yeah. So yes, magic and potentially like computer systems work. I mentioned. Medieval neon aesthetic setting, which I still would be


Unknown Speaker  1:28:17  



Aram Vartian  1:28:18  

Imagine all the neon lights underneath armour? Come on, it would be friggin amazing.


Amelia Antrim  1:28:22  

Oh, my gosh.


Dylan Malenfant  1:28:24  

Yeah. No.


Ryan Boelter  1:28:27  



Dylan Malenfant  1:28:28  

I think, like the aesthetic works, certainly. But like I said, there's a certain point where you're building a lot on top of a lot of other stuff. And that's just, that's my, that's my concern. I think it's to try to build with real coherence, it's going to stress a lot. And trying to make sure that this world makes sense detracts a lot from being able to just tell the story,


Aram Vartian  1:28:55  

making magic, it's


Amelia Antrim  1:28:57  

a lot to like, as a player to try and grasp because I think even if you had the kind of DM that could come up with a game and all of this that like you as a player trying to absorb the world that the DM creates with this is like a lot of back lower and stuff to really understand and grasp. And because


Dylan Malenfant  1:29:16  

then we could also like we could tone your thing down by losing the Digi part of it. And if we just characterize your existence is like, if find familiar, broke away from the Wizard, right, which is a kind of interesting character, I think. But again, that means that we have to impose on your character,


Amelia Antrim  1:29:34  

right, right. That means I've come with a concept and you've said no, we can't do a hold on we need to


Aram Vartian  1:29:39  

adjust. What if we just make a match and lectricity? What if we literally give electricity, the property of magic, then everything works in this world? Sure.


Dylan Malenfant  1:29:50  

Again, we're now pushing into territory where like, why isn't? Yeah, it's just


Aram Vartian  1:29:56  

writing century shadow run is what we're making. Yeah, yeah, the time you


Dylan Malenfant  1:30:01  

can make it work, the question becomes why are you playing?


Ryan Boelter  1:30:05  

Yeah, I mean, and honestly, that's that's what the supplements are for right to completely take the framework of what d&d is. And to play a slightly if not completely different in different directions. But


Amelia Antrim  1:30:17  

the thing is, I think the purpose of a lot of supplements is I don't want to play d&d, but I don't want to learn new rules.


Ryan Boelter  1:30:23  

Exactly. Yeah. And that's 100% valid way of going about it. Honestly. I love the creativity, like Yeah, 220 ish, new, you know, species of characters that you can play as a lot of them are wacky, a lot of them are wild. A lot of them could easily fit into traditional d&d world, whatever. But like, that's a lot of amazing creativity. And they're bringing that to the 5g system, which is really, I


Amelia Antrim  1:30:55  

think there's a ton of like, and I certainly don't want to write that off. And I don't want people to, you know, come out of listening to these episodes, thinking that like, the creativity that people are putting into these games is astounding. Yeah, there was a supplement last year that was Neverland, that like, I mean, it had whole new character classes, and like it just like, like all like this different hex grid and all kinds of like, it was just really gorgeous. And there's, there's lots of cool stuff being done. And I absolutely understand that there is a cognitive load involved in learning a new game, there is a financial aspect in picking up a new game and having to buy new books. And I know people say like, well, if you're buying the supplements already, why don't you just buy the new gate, like, whatever I get that. But there is a lot of effort has to be put into learning a new game, finding somebody to run a new game, making sure everybody in your group wants to play anyway. So there's definitely something to be said for picking up supplements and saying, I want to play d&d, but I want to play in space. Cool. There is an option to do that. You know, like I want to play d&d, but I want to play in Narnia go for it live stream. There are also times where as we have shown here, d&d might not be the game that we're trying to play. Yep. With what we built. Yeah. And that is valid.


Dylan Malenfant  1:32:19  

I think it's part of why like, we've seen a little bit like, from some of the conversations in the discord for the channel, like some of the things that I've said, haven't necessarily landed, because we are coming from a place where, honestly, at this point, I know too much about RPGs. So I can recognize places where like, Oh, I think this is better served by this. And I can just pivot because I do know that system, because there's


Amelia Antrim  1:32:44  

definitely a right that like I have learned the shorthand of a lot of things in RPG is that I can just pivot and say like, okay, I can go over here, and I know how this applies. It doesn't feel like learning a whole new thing to me anymore. Because I have all of this shorthand, you know, it's like, okay, I know Latin. And so now it's easier for me to learn the other Romance languages, right?


Dylan Malenfant  1:33:07  

It's, it's a weird analogy to the whole, like, if all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail, right? Like, we have to also like, extend the analogy a little bit to just be like, there are things that are better to do with an x instead of a sock. So as a precision tools, X just does a splitting job. But if you only have an x, and you need a saw, well, I mean, I guess we have to, we have to make it work with your work. We're just going to use the tool we have with that if you're running d&d, because you don't have the time or the money in the investment until you build up that knowledge. Because


Amelia Antrim  1:33:41  

that's what your group is cool with. Like, there's like my brother is one of those people that like I have played with him before. Like, I know, he knows how to play other games, just because that's what his friends want to play. And it's like, cool, live it up. If that's what's fun for you, and you want to try out different things or play at different ways. Or, again, there was a game that came out last year, it was the spy game that was like a spy version of d&d. But gear was done as magical items. Like it was it was a really cool mechanic and it's like there are there are ways to change it up and like do


Dylan Malenfant  1:34:18  

it done it with spell slots, and I get where you're coming from.


Amelia Antrim  1:34:24  

But that, you know, there are ways to reskin it that are you know, like interesting and new style. Yeah, that aren't just like, oh, I changed the name of it and you know, added plus two and whatever.


Dylan Malenfant  1:34:36  

These are the the Oh, GL glut of just another 1000 feats that are plus one to your right acrobatics.


Amelia Antrim  1:34:46  

Yeah, there are definitely cool things happening out there and like people are making new stuff in new ways. So there's definitely still things to be seen. It's, I think, as a proof proven. It's just it's an how you use it. Yeah. You know, it's not your views that you


Unknown Speaker  1:35:02  

use more than once. Yeah, exactly.


Amelia Antrim  1:35:05  

And who you who you let use this,


Ryan Boelter  1:35:09  

right? And you have to also have to be careful because like, from just from picking the from from like, aside from the the whole thematics of your plane essentially in car. Like mechanically I'm looking at this and I'm like this doesn't make sense mechanically like, why am I missing out on this attribute? Why do I have to miss out? On the second attribute boost? Why do I have to miss out on that? Why is it only 40 feet per second or four per ride?


Amelia Antrim  1:35:33  

Faster? Yeah.


Aram Vartian  1:35:37  

Like, but you're correct.


Ryan Boelter  1:35:39  

And why can I only hold one person inside my my sacrifice


Dylan Malenfant  1:35:43  

for? To be fair, we have no real scope of how fast people move because 30 feet in six seconds. Sure, nothing. Like I can run faster than that. And I am wildly out of shape. And I never did cardio really, even when I was in shape, which is a bad thing. If you're going to try to get in shape. Make sure you kind of take


Amelia Antrim  1:36:07  

like three times a week and cardio is always sucks. I would rather I will do leg day every day. He has always been to run anywhere soon.


Aram Vartian  1:36:15  

But it's not but for the first time.


Amelia Antrim  1:36:19  

I think that's the problem. I get bored the night up. I can't like run for more than like, a couple because I'm like, this is boring.


Aram Vartian  1:36:29  

As far as strength on the treadmill, I get it.


Dylan Malenfant  1:36:32  

No. But ya know, that's in the defense of the, the speed of the verb room, like none of the speeds in d&d actually make any sense. And we're all specifically in the context of you moving that fast during college, trying to avoid getting hit. So like, alright, well, we'll let that slide. But I don't know, Ryan, you came to closest to sell it trying to


Amelia Antrim  1:36:58  

balance a car. It's a really good point, though. Like we're trying to, you know, like when you add the speed in there, and you're like, okay, but the car needs to also go, you know, like, not so much faster than the elf or


Aram Vartian  1:37:08  

you hear less about balance. And I encourage everyone who plays d&d to care less about balance, as long as everyone's having fun.


Amelia Antrim  1:37:17  

Use to ask a question about that. Early on in our in our list, there was we had a question about like, how did these different classes balanced against each other? And almost every designer we had, I was like, who cares? Like not like, Why do you care about that? So like, we took that question out, because it was like after we got past d&d, everybody was like, it doesn't like it's not supposed to the only


Dylan Malenfant  1:37:39  

time you can actually balance classes is when all classes are supposed to accomplish the same goal. Yes. If all your classes you're trying to do the same thing, you can measure how effectively each one does it. But when even in d&d, the rogue having expertise at high levels is wildly unbalanced. If you're making a skill check, yeah, because there's no way anyone can ever be like, say you got plus five from your charisma and you've got proficiency and deception and you double that because you have expertise. Okay, so now we're at a plus 17. To my role, literally no class can ever tell that the Rogue is lying at their highest role, even if they roll their highest role. Unbalanced, that's not balanced, not watch. The road can only have a damage output if it meets all of these conditions in combat, whereas the wizard can be standing across the room and light everyone on fire.


Amelia Antrim  1:38:35  

Sneeze and then everything's done. Yeah. So


Dylan Malenfant  1:38:39  

like balance is only meaningful when you can compare apples to apples. Absolutely. I think the closest to making the story makes sense was what you gave us, Ryan, but that is again, forcing the entire party to forget what cars are at which point what was the point of view playing a sapient. Gargan? Right.


Amelia Antrim  1:39:00  

Why did you bother picking up? Yeah, yeah. Trying to


Dylan Malenfant  1:39:03  

make sense of it. Because you're like, Oh, that's not a thing that a car can do. Well, yeah. But also he's not really play a car.


Ryan Boelter  1:39:11  

No, no. Yeah. It's just a weird creature. Right? Yeah.


Dylan Malenfant  1:39:15  

Once it's a weird, weird creature. I mean, just play a centaur. It made more sense. And it takes up the same space.


Ryan Boelter  1:39:22  

It's true. They're both large. Yeah.


Amelia Antrim  1:39:23  

Yeah. Normally we talk about our advancement stuff now. Take it up a level. Level Level One A, we've been at this for two hours already. Yep. And it's already really long. And b I just don't really feel like there's anywhere to go.


Dylan Malenfant  1:39:37  

There. There isn't a story at which point like, all of it. We're in d&d. If you weren't going to multiclass then where you would go is more levels in your class. Right.


Ryan Boelter  1:39:48  

We are thankful by going for levels in


Amelia Antrim  1:39:52  

Yeah. I mean, I think that we there's we all pixel like weird, extra backgrounds. So Like it's just not you just follow whatever it says to do, which would not be specific to story, which always bothers me, like your leveling would have nothing to do with what's going on in the story. Because what's going on in the story would have almost nothing to do with each of our individual classes


Dylan Malenfant  1:40:16  

here, even for the bulk of it. Like Ryan, I know you've took a subclass out of the book, I'm pretty sure you did as well, Amelia, but like, most of your abilities are still going to be the robe abilities out of the PhB Yes, sorcerer abilities out of the PhB. And every once in a while you'll get the bump out of the weird book subclass. Yeah, like it's already in stone.


Ryan Boelter  1:40:39  

Yeah. Yeah, your back your background doesn't matter. No background or leveling up,


Unknown Speaker  1:40:43  

your yours,


Ryan Boelter  1:40:45  

your species does not matter. For leveling up at all. It's, it's,


Amelia Antrim  1:40:50  

it's so for me like for leveling up, the only thing would be, that would matter would be the one fun thing that I picked from the PHP, yes, would be one.


Ryan Boelter  1:41:01  

Class. And that's, that's what it boils down to, like, you get some hit points. And, and some,


Amelia Antrim  1:41:10  

maybe it's so unsatisfying.


Ryan Boelter  1:41:13  

If you end if you gain a plus one and then attribute, there's a 5050 chance it will do nothing. It's part


Dylan Malenfant  1:41:19  

of why I hate odd numbers and ability scores. Because at that point, the only thing left to do is you go into the feats and you find one that gives you a plus one just to round it out. So yeah, bonus. And then you can go back to waiting until every fourth level when you get an interesting choice. And you actually get to go through the scenes and find something fun to do. Yep, yep. Yep. Which point just give me a book where it's all, it's all just


Amelia Antrim  1:41:44  

the end. So many dead levels are so boring, it's so boring.


Dylan Malenfant  1:41:48  

I wouldn't even necessarily say they're dead levels. They're just locked in levels. It's, it's just, you're being told you are going to get this at this point, and you can't have it yet. There isn't a choice that you're getting to make, there isn't a way in which leveling up reflects the story, like you said, Unless every now and then you're carefully selecting multiclass option, and even there that can really screw with things. Because


Ryan Boelter  1:42:17  

there's two points when you pick your class. And when you pick your subclass, those are your choices. Everything outside of that is locked down, you're down this line, except for maybe when you pick some spells


Dylan Malenfant  1:42:30  

do do it a step worse because they tied the feats and the ability score increases to your class. So if you get halfway through and you're like, I'm kind of bored. I think it'd be interesting if I dipped into Warlock. Well, now because you made that choice, it's going to be another four levels before you get to make another choice. Because you've now put off that ASI or the feet as the case may be. It just I don't know, it locks you in in a way that I don't find fun. Right? If you're not gonna give me anything new to choose between points A and B. If I'm just going to be walking down the line you prescribed for me Why is this not just a single level?


Aram Vartian  1:43:11  

Right? Why isn't it clear like in other games why if you're going to be railroaded railroad may have to put me on a pass make that path, very clear. Market?


Amelia Antrim  1:43:21  

Yeah, don't pretend to not do that. I think that's I think that's what bothers me,


Dylan Malenfant  1:43:26  

buddy, start playing d&d at level three. You start off at the first interesting choice you get to make in the next level, you get to make another interesting choice. And then the next level, you don't make a choice, but you do get something cool as a result of your previous choice. And then six, and seven, are waiting for those abilities to kick in and hoping that they're interesting. And then an eight you get to make another choice. Like they're, like I said, just make this a five level game. You start at level three, and then you get level five, and then you get level eight. And then you get Yeah, yeah, you'll feel like you actually get to make decisions. It matters.


Ryan Boelter  1:44:05  

It's really interesting that a game that feels like the whole point of playing in in if you just look at the mechanics, advance and progress your character question is so unsatisfying that it's very satisfying, right? I mean, why are we also playing it like if you're a wizard and you hit level five and you finally get fireball and then it's like yes, I've got fireball I feel powerful. This is amazing. But now


Dylan Malenfant  1:44:33  

I can wait until level 11 Because the level of force spells are pretty much all garbage.


Ryan Boelter  1:44:39  

Yeah, exactly. And so it's like this progression game that is just like it progression feels like they how they treat backlogs. It feels like Oh yeah. Oh Andy you get backgrounds. Oh, and you progress eventually.


Dylan Malenfant  1:44:57  

Oh, you gain you gain a level good for you.


Ryan Boelter  1:44:59  

Yeah. way, roll your dice get some hit points. Here's here's some toys for you to play with. Have fun. Killing more monsters. Yeah, right. But that's that's only like a small part of what RPGs can do. And so now now you're in this whole like, well, if I'm playing d&d, I'm I'm generally playing combat because that's what the game is


Unknown Speaker  1:45:26  

for. That's


Dylan Malenfant  1:45:28  

very good. d&d, for the record, we do. Yeah. That's why we


Amelia Antrim  1:45:33  

feel bad. Like when we talk about on the show feel like we always are like, Oh, God, but I just I think my thing is always like, there is a time and a place for it. And my frustration is always this like square peg round hole. Like, yeah, not everything is is meant to be d&d, and d&d won't do everything. And for the things that you want it to do, it can do them really well. It just, it's not all the things.


Aram Vartian  1:45:56  

I've mentioned this before with our show, our show, kill every monster is not a d&d celebration show. There are many, many, many d&d celebration shows. Ours is a d&d criticism show, doesn't mean we don't love it. We love the show. But a lot of our show is about looking at the end with a critical eye and re evaluating and asking questions instead of just accepting it for


Unknown Speaker  1:46:22  

what it is.


Dylan Malenfant  1:46:23  

Yeah, we've had a lot of people who are confused because like, they're going like, and reasonably so they come into the show expecting a lecture and explanation of like, how to use the monster appropriately in the game. And then we come in, and they're like, and here's why the game is wrong. Right? Like our base starting point is not education on d&d. It's education to d&d, because d&d is incorrect.


Amelia Antrim  1:46:47  

But I also think that like conversations like that, and I've said this about myself with, you know, other things that I talked about, she's like the, there's a it has to come from a place of love. Yeah, like you only know so much about a thing. And like, you only know what to dig that deep and to look for all those flaws when you've spent. Yeah, so we're not looking in LinkedIn.


Dylan Malenfant  1:47:10  

Like you're not d&d, I would just say d&d, as we move on that I don't want to play.


Amelia Antrim  1:47:15  

We're not right. And it like comes from a place of love. Because it's like, look, I love you so much. I want like I want


Aram Vartian  1:47:23  

about you. This is how concerned I am about you. I've put this much effort in.


Amelia Antrim  1:47:29  

I am still here, because I think that we can work together. here because I love you.


Aram Vartian  1:47:37  

I will give you another chance. Right? Yes. I mean, yeah, you


Amelia Antrim  1:47:41  

only know that much about a game because you've looked at it so much, because you've spent so much time on it to be able to see this, like there's a point where it's like, Okay, I like this thing. It's cool. I've looked at it, I've looked at it, I've looked at it, and then you start to see all those niggly little bits that don't work anymore, you know that you're like, Oh, I've stared at it so long that I can we you know,


Aram Vartian  1:48:02  

we've been in a marriage for a long time.


Dylan Malenfant  1:48:10  

And this is where people are free to disagree with us entirely. Like you, we don't have to be on the same page for this one. But that it's just not becoming cinema sense. Right? See all the little niggly bits, all the bits that don't work. And then it's just make sure your criticism mattered. Right? Oh, no, it was night when he entered the tunnel. And it was day when he came out of the tunnel like, continuity error, but like Okay, so if it was still light, would that


Amelia Antrim  1:48:36  

actually change? Right when I'm added to the story, ya know,


Dylan Malenfant  1:48:39  

and that's the goal is just hopefully, the criticisms we're giving people are useful to them in their home game and feel warranted, as opposed to just walking in and going.


Dylan Malenfant  1:48:51  

It's goofy that the wizard can't cast a spell at this level yet.


Amelia Antrim  1:48:59  

That's annoying. No, I think it's worth looking at. One thing that I like about kill every monsters who was like, Okay, this is bad. Here's what would make it better. Here's what would you know, like, what would be fun is if we tried this stuff? Yeah, you know, I'd like to see it do this thing, or if it had this ability, or whatever. Yeah. Which is, you know, what I hope people get out of this too, is that like, you can play with all of these supplements. You can just here's how to direct it. Here's how to make that extra.


Aram Vartian  1:49:31  

You're going to tear down you got to build up. If you're going to rip something down to the foundation, you better leave something afterwards because people care about this. You don't want to just beat it up for no reason. I mean, if you if you have a reason, you should showcase what it is to do the other thing, otherwise you're just begging just throwing bricks at Windows.


Amelia Antrim  1:49:50  

Right? What was the solution?


Unknown Speaker  1:49:53  

Exactly. Yeah, it was a solution.


Amelia Antrim  1:49:55  

Absolutely. Yes. And play d&d. You know what if if having A broom broom and an orca Baker in your game sounds like fun go for it it does not sound fun to me I do not understand how to do it if you can go with God is your dream Live Your Dream go with your many separate gods that each of your characters worships that's fine ah


Ryan Boelter  1:50:22  

well this has been a ton of fun I have thoroughly enjoyed both creating characters with with both of you and in discussing DD and and revisiting d&d After four years of doing this it's wild it's such a such a fun experiment that we did here yeah


Amelia Antrim  1:50:42  

this is a weird I'm glad it worked out slash didn't work out but it was a fun little thought exercise


Ryan Boelter  1:50:48  



Unknown Speaker  1:50:49  

I enjoyed our failure


Amelia Antrim  1:50:53  

and that's what matters right? We had fun Yeah,


Dylan Malenfant  1:51:02  

and listeners if this turned out to be a slog that only we enjoyed you know, you can always try kill every monster which Episode Episode is very good.


Aram Vartian  1:51:12  

Absolutely. Well, all in every episode. Kill every monster. Yeah, like in every single episode of kill every monster the guests are great. The guests are always amazing.


Amelia Antrim  1:51:22  

They don't have any crappy guests on there. Yeah.


Dylan Malenfant  1:51:25  

Steaks like these two having us on the show.


Ryan Boelter  1:51:34  

Well, on that note, Dylan around. I thank you both so much for joining us to talk about Dungeons and Dragons. Seriously, thank


Dylan Malenfant  1:51:41  

you for having us on. This was fantastic.


Aram Vartian  1:51:43  

It was a great time.


Ryan Boelter  1:51:44  

Can you remind everyone where they can find you online and what sort of things you're working on? Yeah.


Dylan Malenfant  1:51:50  

I am basically doing my PhD and kill every monster and you can't see any my PhD stuff yet because it's not done. So check out kill every monster instead. There you go. And you can find me on Twitter at DJ melon funks. For the record, not a DJ, middle name is Jacob. And you can find the podcasts at wherever you find podcasts kill every monster or on Twitter at K M podcasts. Talk Now also on yes


Aram Vartian  1:52:21  

also on Tik Tok. You can find me at a ROM Vartan. You can find everything about kill every monster at kill every Or again on Twitter at km podcast.


Amelia Antrim  1:52:33  

Well, thank you both for sitting down with us. This was such a good time. Thank you to everyone for suffering through this with us. We will be back actually next week, I think was our q&a. Right, right.


Ryan Boelter  1:52:44  

Yeah, it shouldn't be a surprise


Amelia Antrim  1:52:45  

extra episode this month. If not two, we'll see how much we talk called to. Yeah, like that. This was a really good discussion. I loved the conversation that we got to have I loved being able to really kind of dig into that like that sort of back and forth between like, I really liked d&d, but and the number of times it in these, you know, in the series I've kind of hated on d&d, admittedly. But to be able to kind of dig in and say like, No, I think it is good for some stuff. It just, you know, a place for everything and everything in its place, as my mom says. So I really think that we, we got to hit on some of that stuff. And some of those nuances and subtleties that we don't always get to talk about. Yeah, so it's an it felt really nice to be able to do that. Finally,


Ryan Boelter  1:53:46  

yeah. And I enjoyed being the instigator for once.


Amelia Antrim  1:53:50  

Yeah, I do feel a little bit bad. I walked away after our recording. I was like, Was I too mean, that was like, This is your fault. Ryan, you ruined it.


Ryan Boelter  1:53:59  

I I ruined it on purpose, admittedly, so.


Amelia Antrim  1:54:02  

So, you know, I was like, was I to me? No, I was right.


Ryan Boelter  1:54:06  

You were right. Because I did ruin it on purpose. Because that was the whole point of the exercise to to,


Amelia Antrim  1:54:15  

like, this work. Yeah.


Unknown Speaker  1:54:21  

Who's to say who's to say? But yeah, it was


Amelia Antrim  1:54:27  

fun is to say and Dylan says, No,


Ryan Boelter  1:54:28  

I know. I agree. The the level headed one in the room. A lot.


Amelia Antrim  1:54:33  

I mean, I'd like after all of this is over. I can safely say like, Yeah, I'm with Elon on this one. Yeah. But


Ryan Boelter  1:54:42  

before we let you go for the week, we do just have a few calls to action.


Amelia Antrim  1:54:47  

If you are listening today, Monday, May 16. And there's still some time left in the day. It is miracle Monday, where Jeff Stormer is hosting a superhero themed stream up on the one Shot network twitch. It will be tons of great content all for a great cause to support trans lifeline. We have an AP on there today, depending on when you're listening to this. I don't know if it already happened or not. I don't know what time but you can find all of that over on Shot RPG so please pop in and see what's going on over there.


Ryan Boelter  1:55:21  

Yeah, absolutely. We also have some new merch available on the One Shot T public store. If you love Sims for Esports as much as we do. You'll check that out. Four out of five doctors millipede agree soon as his for esports is amazing.


Amelia Antrim  1:55:41  

We have one more review to read it as the last one in our pile. So please consider leaving one over on Apple podcasts pod chaser, podcast addict or a rating on Spotify. Did I get all of them on Facebook? Oh, Facebook. Yeah. Okay. But now I'm gonna read one that we got from Fishkin on podcast addict, a fantastic podcasts giving overviews of RPG systems through character creation. I would have been happy to give 10 stars out of five if I could. It's that good. Oh, thank you. That is like a we rate dogs level of like well bought at 10.


Ryan Boelter  1:56:22  

Thank you. Yeah, thank you so much for that review. Well, that's it for our calls to action. Thanks for sticking with us. Everyone. We know this serious was a lot of long episodes. And I promised not to overload you with outtakes this one time. So


Amelia Antrim  1:56:39  

appropriate, they were not Ryan approved


Unknown Speaker  1:56:41  

out so many. I would


Ryan Boelter  1:56:43  

have to be spamming the language but


Amelia Antrim  1:56:46  

you would like to actually hear any of the outtakes.


Ryan Boelter  1:56:51  

Pretty much. So maybe that content will find its way somewhere in the grand scheme of the universe. But, you know, until we find a poem for it,


Amelia Antrim  1:57:01  

it's not. Exactly. But,


Ryan Boelter  1:57:05  

you know, stay tuned next week for the start of our special bonus q&a, I guess series at this.


Amelia Antrim  1:57:11  

Yeah, it's gonna have to be you. You submitted too many questions to your listeners. And now it's got to be several episodes. We're gonna have a week off from us, but you don't get one. You did it to yourself.


Ryan Boelter  1:57:23  

You didn't hear yourself. But you also did it to us and we appreciate it. Yes. So until then, have a good rest of your week. Stay safe, drink some water, loosen those shoulders, you know, probably still wearing masks, vaccinate and making those amazing people. We'll see you next time.


Ryan Boelter  1:58:03  

Character Creation Cast is a production of the One Shot Podcast Network and can be found online at www dot character creation had to the website to get more information on our hosts this show and even our press kit. Character Creation Cast can also be found on twitter at creation cast or ON OUR DISCORD SERVER at discord dot character creation I one of your hosts Ryan boelter and I can be found on twitter at Learn Neptune or online at Lord Our other hosts Amelia Antrim can be found on twitter at ginger reckoning. Music for this episode is used with a Creative Commons license, or with permission from the podcast they originated from. Further information can be found within the show notes. Our main theme music is hero remix by Steve combs, and is used with a Creative Commons license. This podcast is owned by us under Creative Commons. This episode was edited by Ryan boelter. Further information for the game systems used and today's guests can be found in the show notes. If you'd like to leave us a rating or review. We have links to various preview platforms out there including Apple podcasts in our show notes. Also check the show notes for links to our other projects. Thanks for joining us. And remember we find that the best part of any role playing game is character creation. So go out there and create some amazing people. We will see you next time.


Amelia Antrim  1:59:49  

Now we got to read some show blurbs show blurbs show show birth shop nerves. Character Creation Cast is hosted by the one chatbot Cast network. If you enjoyed our show, visit one shot where you'll find other great shows like Asians represent


Ryan Boelter  2:00:07  

Asians represent celebrates Asian creators and diversity in the gaming community. Join hosts Agatha Chang, and Daniel Kwan as they discuss gaming genre and representation with their guests. And occasionally, are you with each other to the sound of Agatha is beloved air horn app. See, I did it. There we go.


Dylan Malenfant  2:00:33  

It's running. It's great. It's beautiful. I've got I want to do like a secondary account just to make sure you can line these up, or you feel like you're gonna be good.


Ryan Boelter  2:00:42  

It'll be fine. Cool, close. And every time we do like a clap, or or whatever, it just goes,


Unknown Speaker  2:00:50  

arise, because I go like this. Yep. Or I hit my mic, or,


Amelia Antrim  2:00:56  

oh, yeah, I've done that a lot, too.


Ryan Boelter  2:00:58  

I gotta, I gotta turn down the game a little bit, though, because I'm still getting used to the room. Right? Sure. It's brand new, like three weeks old or so.


Amelia Antrim  2:01:07  

He keeps saying things like, Oh, you can tell the difference. Like it sounds terrible. And I'm like,


Aram Vartian  2:01:13  

No, I do it to Dylan all the time. I'm he's lying. I'm like, Dylan. Listen, I have completely remastered this entire episode. Listen to it. You can hear the difference. And Dylan has this concept where he's like, Oh, yeah.


Amelia Antrim  2:01:28  

I do when my child talks to me is like Mom, look at this really cool. Look at that. out of you. I'm also


Dylan Malenfant  2:01:37  

very tall


Dylan Malenfant  2:01:46  

lady, she told me that he had completely fixed some of my audio sent me a new file and then I double check the file names to make


Unknown Speaker  2:01:53  

sure it was fixed


Amelia Antrim  2:01:59  

at the level of friendship so that I have another peer to where it's like, look, what do you need today? Can you just like say nice things about me for a little bit. Like that's what I really need. Great I AM.


Unknown Speaker  2:02:11  

I can always I always I always know how needy Dylan thinks I am because I'll just get some cat pictures. Okay, thank you. Look at these go away.


Dylan Malenfant  2:02:24  

I am busy. Here is the cat please stop talking to me.


Amelia Antrim  2:02:30  

I have a paper to write Can you just go like,


Unknown Speaker  2:02:32  

I'm in the middle of something. So.


Amelia Antrim  2:02:36  

Thanks. Guys, I think it's important to just know what the dynamic is. And then


Dylan Malenfant  2:02:42  

just Yeah.


Amelia Antrim  2:02:46  

Dylan Jude says Hi, because he's messaging me right now. He's like, I'm doing this and I was like, I'm in the middle of something. And he's like, Hi.


Dylan Malenfant  2:02:54  

Dylan, listen. You're interrupting. Tell him I said hey, Jude, but don't make it bad. We're in the middle of a podcast. One


Aram Vartian  2:03:04  

he didn't even have children.


Unknown Speaker  2:03:07  

Was that was that joke that bad?


Ryan Boelter  2:03:14  

Alright, so so half these outtakes I can't use? Yes, fine.


Aram Vartian  2:03:21  

Least the least we're just trying to get like, you know, like, oh, out before your PG 13.


Amelia Antrim  2:03:27  

Want us to know what we're in for? That's true. Which is why Ryan will be playing the extremely not racist race of


Unknown Speaker  2:03:37  

white. Too many opportunities for


Ryan Boelter  2:03:48  

speaking of supplements,


Dylan Malenfant  2:03:50  

is one of the race options for


Unknown Speaker  2:03:55  

to sell subclass of the. blooper reel.


Unknown Speaker  2:04:07  

That's definitely Oh, take


Amelia Antrim  2:04:11  

that and then my follow up question of if I go on a date with you. Will you murder me? Say Why would you ask that? I say why wouldn't my


Dylan Malenfant  2:04:23  

worst case scenario you say no. And you think it's a weird question. We just move on best case scenario you say? Yes. And I leave. Right. Exactly. I


Amelia Antrim  2:04:30  

think honestly, the best case scenario was this one person that said no. Are you going to murder me? There you go. And I was like, asking the right questions. No, I think I believe I said it


Dylan Malenfant  2:04:46  



Amelia Antrim  2:04:47  

I said, Well, I haven't met you yet. We'll see how it goes.


Unknown Speaker  2:04:49  

I would like the one who was who you know who was like just didn't expect the question. Well, yes, exactly. Honestly, I was thinking about it. I was


Amelia Antrim  2:04:57  

brought out So it feels weird.


Ryan Boelter  2:05:02  

Now I can't because you're expecting it


Aram Vartian  2:05:04  

on the table now


Amelia Antrim  2:05:10  

before we actually start making characters, maybe at some point yes he I forgot that you did it wrong last time.


Unknown Speaker  2:05:21  

It threw you off it.


Amelia Antrim  2:05:23  

I totally


Ryan Boelter  2:05:24  

it. Honestly, it threw me off to


Amelia Antrim  2:05:28  

it wasn't right. It wasn't it felt something one way for four years and then like no warning just,


Unknown Speaker  2:05:34  

I was very willy nilly.


Ryan Boelter  2:05:36  

I was in a very silly mood.


Amelia Antrim  2:05:40  

I feel like that's not unusual. You know, I feel like we come into this and we're either like, super slap happy or we're both like, way too tired.


Ryan Boelter  2:05:50  

It's not unusual to click that record button. Why don't I remember?


Amelia Antrim  2:05:55  

I had it in my head too. Why? Why is that in my head?


Ryan Boelter  2:06:00  

Because it's not unusual. You should check your level.


Amelia Antrim  2:06:06  

Why not? Yeah, just like that there's just like some real sweet bass happening outside and like oh, rattling my windows. Okay.


Unknown Speaker  2:06:19  

All about the bass. All About That Bass. We did it. We did 31 minutes for five minutes of content stopping.


Ryan Boelter  2:06:35  

Okay, so I didn't get any extra. Good. Actual. My character sheet. I've got too many things open. I'm too close all the stuff I'm not using


Aram Vartian  2:06:47  

your character sheet is now just a Kelly's Blue Book page. Be a little nicer to me.


Unknown Speaker  2:06:56  

But I couldn't say that's that's true.


Dylan Malenfant  2:07:01  

I will grant that you pick something somehow. Somehow you didn't make the most ridiculous character?


Unknown Speaker  2:07:08  

No, not even close. Not even remotely like an elephant named Johnny sacks who plays his trunk? Like a like a saxophone. It's not even close to the silliest thing. Yeah. Pretty happy about that. Yep.


Aram Vartian  2:07:26  

I do like the car.


Dylan Malenfant  2:07:27  

I say this so much. It's like, my only ask out of a d&d game usually is cohesion. Like for me, this


Aram Vartian  2:07:38  

is purposeful. This is agonism as much as possible. Yeah. And then how can we pull it together in the end? I like it's fun. But it's also everything you hate, which is the best but you also just adds to joy. I mean, all of this really is about


Amelia Antrim  2:07:54  

Okay, did it warn you?


Dylan Malenfant  2:07:57  

We're gonna do all this you did? You did. But you under each of the slat books. So yes, I miss the cryptocurrency. Now his book.


Aram Vartian  2:08:08  

He also he always underestimate how much effort I put into it to make a turret for him. He always underestimates that somehow


Amelia Antrim  2:08:16  

I know but the whole point of this one was for it to be stupid. That's true. This was dare to be stupid on a per se not trying to be serious at all. I wouldn't invite our Brahmanda


Aram Vartian  2:08:24  

Why would you just sabotage it


Dylan Malenfant  2:08:27  

is important to have me here to sandbag things a little bit. Yeah. Because I have no capacity for whimsy.


Unknown Speaker  2:08:36  

You really doesn't show up for the week hates Wednesday No, no if this is serious, Tim would literally have to be recording this with his knee on my neck and just got up just go. He's not near a mic for the next 30 minutes go. Quick. Well, you can walk me to basement.


Amelia Antrim  2:09:02  

Nobody went with the pro wrestling book.


Dylan Malenfant  2:09:05  

At least something with okay.


Ryan Boelter  2:09:09  

My, my PDF reader always froze. It froze. I was just I scrolled one page too far. And it just said sorry, I'm out.


Unknown Speaker  2:09:20  

Walb loft


Ryan Boelter  2:09:23  

All right. My character was saved. I don't know where they're good. Yeah, so I didn't lose my horrible stat.


Unknown Speaker  2:09:31  

I don't shame


Unknown Speaker  2:09:34  

except we come back rolling threes.


Dylan Malenfant  2:09:40  

So here's what we're gonna do. Ryan, you get what you can for usable bloopers and I'm so sorry. And any of the non usable bloopers you just pass along to around and we'll throw them up on the kill every month.


Aram Vartian  2:09:53  

Across we'll do a little bit of cross promotion.


Ryan Boelter  2:09:56  

All right. I will have I will have a and outtakes are tracked. And a I hate use this track.


Unknown Speaker  2:10:06  

I'll just ask this tracker behind with me three hours and 27


Aram Vartian  2:10:09  

minutes long


Unknown Speaker  2:10:13  

I'm glad that they will live


Ryan Boelter  2:10:15  

on somewhere. Yeah, hell yeah.


Unknown Speaker  2:10:18  

All right


Ryan Boelter  2:10:19  

now we can press stop on those.


Amelia Antrim  2:10:24  

I did it.


Ryan Boelter  2:10:25  

I did it too. I almost forgot to click it


Amelia Antrim  2:10:29  

that kind of day. It really


Ryan Boelter  2:10:30  

has been. It's fine. I feel Yeah. All right. We're gonna knock this out so fast. We'll have no room for outtakes. It'd be great. That'd be great. I've got food coming sometime soon.


Amelia Antrim  2:10:42  

So yeah, that's fine. I will do the five count. We'll go. All right. Don't laugh at my janky fingers. No, no,


Ryan Boelter  2:10:50  

I am very impressed by your workaround.


Amelia Antrim  2:10:53  

That's like, I can't I can't do three.


Ryan Boelter  2:10:56  

You can do three. It's just a different title.


Amelia Antrim  2:11:00  

So yeah.


Ryan Boelter  2:11:04  

Call to which action?


Amelia Antrim  2:11:07  

Maybe the quickest we've ever done.


Ryan Boelter  2:11:08  

Alright, we do have a review by the way. Oh, we do. Podcast addict. Yes, we do. I can. I can read read it out when we get there.


Amelia Antrim  2:11:19  

All right. Okay, fine. Okay,


Unknown Speaker  2:11:21  

so we got one. Okay.


Ryan Boelter  2:11:27  

Is there a hairbrush? Right?


Unknown Speaker  2:11:31  

Huh? Hmm? Oh,


Ryan Boelter  2:11:33  

like 13?


Unknown Speaker  2:11:35  

He did? Yeah.


Amelia Antrim  2:11:37  

Yeah. Didn't even mess it up specifically.


Dylan Malenfant  2:11:38  

First, not official.


Ryan Boelter  2:11:43  

Recording since I fixed my gain issues. I'm very excited. Okay, I'm sorry.


Amelia Antrim  2:11:51  

It just cracks me up. Because every time you're like, it's me, Ryan. And you can hear all of the problems with my audio. And I'm like, I can't


Ryan Boelter  2:12:01  

Oh, it was peeking so much though. All the time. Yes. But now


Amelia Antrim  2:12:07  

he's like, well ask a ROM I bet rom could hear I was like, That is like me saying I can't tell the difference between a real and a fake diamond. But a jeweler could.


Unknown Speaker  2:12:15  

De Beers I bet they could. Like I was like, that's not


Amelia Antrim  2:12:19  

that's not good.


Ryan Boelter  2:12:22  

That's my baseline.


Unknown Speaker  2:12:26  

Doesn't exist at the recording, but somehow stilted around him. Not fair at all.


Aram Vartian  2:12:31  

I said Dylan two clips all the time. Like, listen till you can hear it. And he'll be like, Okay, you can't


Amelia Antrim  2:12:38  

see what I'm saying. Can you tell how bad my audio is? Because there's a fan blowing for miles down the road? Like, no,


Aram Vartian  2:12:49  

I'm pretty sure Doug Ford it, we have to re record it.


Amelia Antrim  2:12:53  

Meanwhile, I'm like, I put a pillow behind my monitor. So maybe that'll help something.


Dylan Malenfant  2:13:00  

It does a little bit of recording earlier today. I shut the door to my office. And I was like, oh, that sounds more echoey open the door. Hopefully that doesn't pick up anything. Anyway.


Amelia Antrim  2:13:13  

Those are my only two adjustments. He's like it's the door open. It's just it just means the curtains,


Ryan Boelter  2:13:18  

more post processing, and that's fine. I mean, it's still listenable.


Amelia Antrim  2:13:24  

Yeah, it's fine. Because I'm not redecorating my house. That's true. All right, we can do our five count and then Ryan can laugh at me because I can't actually count on my fingers. And


Ryan Boelter  2:13:33  

I laugh because it's impressive. But you know, I was I was like, wow, that's that's actually really great. Yeah,


Unknown Speaker  2:13:40  

that's fine. Okay,


Amelia Antrim  2:13:41  

I will do my time here


Aram Vartian  2:13:42  

during your explanation about how you were laughing at her. I just want to point that out.


Ryan Boelter  2:13:48  

I was laughing at myself. Just to be on the record about


Amelia Antrim  2:13:52  

we can record a podcast


Unknown Speaker  2:13:56  

delete delete, delete. Next question


Ryan Boelter  2:14:05  

I've got a cat intrusion. That's okay.


Amelia Antrim  2:14:08  

I tried something horrible to mail to his kid to


Aram Vartian  2:14:10  

look at Sweet they're big. That's okay. Hey, buddy.


Ryan Boelter  2:14:14  

This is Mr. Peaches. Mr. Peaches. He is 16 years old.


Aram Vartian  2:14:20  

Mrs. Mom Mr. Mr. Mr. Mr. Mr. Peaches? Well, hello, Miss Johnson


Amelia Antrim  2:14:25  

truth every Safa. He never makes any noise or anything now he's just like they're like I never saw him.


Ryan Boelter  2:14:30  

When he comes in. He never made it through Doctor school so we couldn't call him Dr. Peaches. Sure


Aram Vartian  2:14:35  

he's not Dr. Peaches, right? Sure. And get the degree d peaches. Bachelors pizzas,


Ryan Boelter  2:14:40  

Dr. Peaches and


Unknown Speaker  2:14:43  

for people I dropped in high school. Like I said, No. It's something anywho


Aram Vartian  2:14:52  

Yeah, diligence hurdles.


Amelia Antrim  2:14:58  

That was great. It was just like one handedly. scoop lake that was a very practiced motion somebody's done that


Dylan Malenfant  2:15:05  

a lot she's lovely I know she'll land on her feet but she's purring and she'll get at the microphone yep


Amelia Antrim  2:15:13  

worse the sounds to have you know are chewing earlier


Aram Vartian  2:15:21  

any riffs table? Oh,


Ryan Boelter  2:15:23  

come on now.


Aram Vartian  2:15:26  

Just because riff is an unplayable game, not because of the


Unknown Speaker  2:15:31  

trap card, you've activated my palladium trap


Ryan Boelter  2:15:36  

let me let me show you my cube full of palladium books.


Aram Vartian  2:15:41  

I'm trying to think of like you tried to run this game with riffs and my brain just broke because riffs


Unknown Speaker  2:15:50  

these are probably character classes in ribs. RCC is OCS he's


Ryan Boelter  2:15:55  

what have you. It doesn't matter it's gonna happen


Aram Vartian  2:15:58  

I want some glitter boy armor


Unknown Speaker  2:16:00  

where the trunk is my real gun


Amelia Antrim  2:16:02  

oh sure done


Dylan Malenfant  2:16:06  

honestly more workable than this party in a d&d game


Unknown Speaker  2:16:14  

portals open all the time and reps the whole game is based around the anything you want to just fall out and then there it is. Right


Amelia Antrim  2:16:19  



Ryan Boelter  2:16:22  

All right. We can hit that stop button right


Unknown Speaker  2:16:25  

there we go. Hey, wait, that was our that wasn't stuff


Amelia Antrim  2:16:31  

he Oh, that was so excited. I was to click he's in one day to


Ryan Boelter  2:16:34  

click is one day double click the day yeah. All right. Series. 53. cold open. Let's let's get right into that action.


Unknown Speaker  2:16:50  

Yeah, like, yeah.


Unknown Speaker  2:16:53  

Okay. Ours for drama, but also so it's easy to edit. To recording


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